War

I have an idea that i think would make the game a more balanced environment between war players and econ players.

here goes...


This idea could change the destructiveness of war moderately active peaceful player(s) suffer, when set upon by an aggressor(s).

It doesn't involve changing the war engine.

Essentially, it revolves around the concept of an aggressor needing to apply "political pressure," to an intended target, before they are able to declare war. If you dont apply political pressure, you simply can not "win" a country.

Without political pressure you can declare and war but not attack any pop targets, nor paint, nor nuke. You can Only attack military or economic targets, conventionally.

Once a player has the first pressure applied on him/her, a 48 hour window begins where other players may Apply political pressure to either side, aggressor or defender. Once this 48 hours is done, the country under threat can receive NO other political pressure from other presidents. And no further war decs from new presidents who may intend to come in late and attack the military targets, reducing the victims chance to wage a proper war.

At this stage another time period begins. this gives the victim..ehem..defender...a chance to set his def and take some countering moves to better position for war.

Once that period of time goes by, all presidents who took part in the apply political pressure phase, can be declared upon by the other players who applied pressure from the other side.

_____________


These changes would give a player the chance(some amount of days before a true war dec is made)to talk before shooting. Assuming a real argument.

Or, it gives them a chance to arrange a def and allies before its too late should the aggressor be intent on raiding an active.

Simply, it gives a player a chance(more Time) to counter the moves made on him while he was not aware he was being targeted.

People who are applying the pressure are immune from counter decs while they are waiting to declare. This gives all the players a chance to start fairly and at the same time. I believe it reduces the disadvantage a declared upon country suffers.

basicaly----Political pressure(choosing sides)\negotiation\war decs.

the vicim will know who there enemies are, what their intentions are and would be given more time to arrange support, better defenses and a better strategic position on the map.

Thoughts?

I wrote this quickly before work so sorry if it is difficult to understand.

i like the concept, but it seems a bit unwieldy

shrug

So this is just basically prolonging the time after war decs to beginning of war? Seems a bit odd to dec and then fight 2 days later.

I do like the political pressure idea - but perhaps instead of for each country, it could be between presidents?

orbiter-It is unwieldy now because I wrote it fast and its in its infancy. its a loose concept geared towards keeping players longer and happier while still letting other players war but with a larger handicap. but, don't worry, skill will always win;)

EO-Yes it creates a period of time where the players can prepare for the on coming threat before that threat can actively declare.

Its basicaly a handicap to let the defender "catch up."

Also, I believe this will result in much larger, and more equalized wars then we see now. All players on the world will have the luxury of the initial 48hours to decide if they want to get involved.

If they want they can jump in with political pressure before that 48hour window closes, even one minute before the 48hours closes, they can declare the next minute, on what ever side they choose.

Then the 32 hour wait begins until the shooting starts.

As long as you are in before that 48 hours closes you can declare when everyone else is able to declare.

The timing between war decs and shooting has been around since the old war engine. If fit that system because war was slower with more limits in place. For those who have been around, think attack rounds. Was 4 per 10min(?) on all world except FB. was 10 there.

And, yes it should be president based. so you can take other countries before or during the war and not have the handicap of waiting another political pressure phase.

Also, You wouldn't have to apply pressure from every country you own on every country the other guys owns. Just one of yours on one of his. this will make all yours and all his open to decs when the 48hours closes. WP should be unavailable after the political pressure is applied. the aggressor can still go into WP before he applies pressure but the defender cant. This still gives a shot at raiding while giving the other guy a shot to defend what he built, sometimes over years.

It's essentially two phases. 48hours to choose up sides and put up an adequate counter to the aggressor then a time window where you can decide to declare if you like. Once declared you wait the 36hours.

And dont get stuck on the terminology. Political pressure is just a word. It could be called "Oh shit now what...someone HELP ME!" Phase

think of it this way.

Political pressure (Phase One, all can get in and the defender gets a small amount of time to prepare)

War dec(Phase 2 only those who stepped forward and said count me in, can declare and shoot.)

both have some finite time limit. Once the decs go down you have your 32hour wait till shooting.

Many dont see this but the game has swung so far in favor of aggressive players, with time and some knowledge that its become unstable.

This is f**ing complicated but I like it.

Attractive ideas:
1) A level of war where you can only attack military (and economic) targets, vs another level of "all-out war" where you can attack civilian targets and capture territory.

2) A longer wait from initial dec to when the fighting starts. The surprise offense does have a huge advantage currently, thus causing great instability in the game--temptation to attack first, or else to hide in permaWP. Coupled with lower cost of offensive weapons and ammo compared to defensive, at least on FB. A few RL days will definitely tilt the pendulum toward a healthier balance between offense and defense.

I think you have more in mind here but I can't quite figure it out.


These ideas would help things on the war world(s). Anything that helps you fit time-intensive wars into your real life will make the war game better. This would take away the constant 24-hour notice we're always under. I'd much rather live under 48-hour notice (humor intended, sarcasm not).

I don't see that it helps the true econ-only players very much. If they haven't been interested enough in exploring the war engine, 24 hrs or 48 hrs or 72 hrs or whatever is not enough time to help. Let them have their own world, with no war, which is I think what they want.

For the balanced, well-rounded players, and also for the active newb, this could be some help. That extra time could mean a lot, and even if outcomes of wars with stronger more experienced players don't change, it could be a less frustrating and more educational experience if they had the extra time to get their head into it, talk to others, set up defenses, and whatnot.

Not sure what I think of the whole concept, as you've said Barney, it's in it's infancy so it's a little hard to wrap my head around it, however I completely agree with allowing people more time after declaration, I proposed something regarding that previously which seemed to be liked but the conversation got off topic...as usual...lol.

Anyway, I like the longer time period, although I'd like to see it as optional, decided by the defending player, if they're available now and want to go, let them start fighting. Give the defender even more options and a chance to set their own schedule somewhat.

Also, how about allowing the defender once declared upon reactivate at a 20% rate instead of 10%...or even double the mil spending space or both. Give them a chance to 'catch up' as you put it.

I definitely like the more time for defenders to prep. Also the 20% reactivation is a good idea.

Good points.

let me try to simplify.

Barney and vicious decide we want to kill laguna.

we set up our forces then we hit the phase one war dec.

This puts laguna on 48hour notice he is about to be declared on.

During that 48 hours he can try to talk us out of war, build def, take some c3's to position him self offensively against our more distant war slaves and try to recruit help for his side.

During that 48 hours yankee decides he will help laguna and declares phase one war dec. he does this 24 hours into the 48hours which began counting down when v and i phase one war dec'd laguna.

No one else shows up for either side.

The 48hours ends.

Then another 24hours begins. barney and V can now declare phase 2 war(real war) on laguna and yankee. Or they can declare on us if they decide to do so.

If no decs in that 24 hours the phase one expires. and back to norm.

If decs then we wait the 32 hours under the current system.

See how that works?

I should shoot you with my banana-gun, I should shoot you right now!

haha, well I was thinking I should say no one in the example above was aware of this idea. I had an epiphany and just wrote it out.

This a good idea, but still not enough time for the defender to build up, if he was playing econ. He would only supposedly have defensive weapons, and it would take way to long to purchase enough weapons/ammo to fight back with.( do you see how long it takes to build a navy? which they would probably need to attack the opponent with).

This idea would work if a player was playing econ/military becauses chances are he has offensive weapons. This would only give enough time to re-activate weapons.

If a player chooses to play econ, he will buy no weapons. More spending space and greater re-activation percents are still not enough for an econ country to prepare for war.

Each world is a war world and people need to be prepared to at least defend themselves(like the docs mentioned). Or use WP.

I think the only way around this would be for countries to have the option of econ or military. If they choose econ, they are not allowed to have any weapons, and they can not be decd on, providing they have no weapons. Or maybe 10% or less military and they cant be decd on.




War is part of life in the real world and it is part of the game for anyone who wants it.

Many of the participants in the game may not be interested in fighting wars and they are welcome to play a peaceful game. Their country can remain in secured mode and will never be attacked.

Anyone who wants to play the full game, will find out that as in the real world, if a small number of countries are conducting themselves aggressively and plan to conquer others, they will find themselves building up defense forces to prevent being attacked.

In Simcountry, all new players are protected against war and can choose to remain in secured mode indefinitely.

Attacking another country does not come easy. It is costly in casualties and it costs large amounts of money. The stronger your enemy, the more damage you will incur and the best countries can do is to build a strong army that will deter others from attacking.

A war can end with defeat; with one country being conquered by another. This means the end of the presidency. The country may fall into the hands of your enemy. You can of course start another country, develop fast and get on with a different life or, if you wish, attack your previous enemy and get even.

There is a difference between worlds on the issue of war and defense. The Fearless blue world is a war world and secured mode does not exist. If you play on the Fearless Blue world, you must prepare yourself for war.

barny, i apologize for my hasty criticism, i wont comment until i re-read the thread, and i'm a bit busy atm.

although, one thing that would be a cool change, is instead of the 4 game month wait, it be an even 24 or 48 hours.

no apology necessary.

the increase in booster's is a good idea. Also, the 20% def reactivation. how about those and some of what is mentioned above?

Granted an econ player would be in trouble, but the time allows players to bring old alliances into play, which would change the dynamics of a war greatly. It may give the aggressor pause for a number of reasons.

Just the fact we are discussing the idea of tilting back towards peaceful players is a good thing, i believe.

Every player who posted here can see clear the disadvantage in the current system. these changes would directly make every poster here work harder in war. face it war is fast and easy at this point for the 5% of us who understand priorities and are given the great advantage of setting up and executing war dec's on other players with different styles.

When WE declare on them you should understand they aren't thinking, I need to get "this" up to kill "that", i need to hunt for "this" by looking here and here, i need to force him into a style of attack im best prepared to defend.

They are thinking, "OH jesus, Oh jesus, all this time and now these AAA players are setting on me. Why?"

Some players NEED more help, either in time to prep, or to recruit help, whether that help be active or passive.

Can you say hired gun? This idea opens a new approach to war, or at least one not seen in many years. you have 48hours to negotiate a price for me to war on your behalf, for example. Just an idea.

the navies are noted but with the right leverage the navy will go away long before they can get to the heli's.

I like the option for econ or military, but I think this would give the war lords an econ sanctuary without any cost association. Im not sure how that would work.

Im trying to find a balance where most players can be happy most of the time, while growing the player base.

I think the above statement is viable While still keeping aggressive style large scale war an option.

We need to find a handicap for the econ and marginally active players. the highly active and highly aggressive players have too large an advantage at this point.

If the 10-15 of us who truly know how to fight were to get together and decide to kill a world who could stop that? No one, and that is wrong and its why this game is becoming unstable.

Like play style draws like players. When the war players get together they war, typically on the econ or "middle of the road" players.

LOL, look I know Ive grown soft in my old age, but the underdogs need some degree of a tangible handicap to improve their odds of survival.

We don't want players leaving the game. there has got to be a middle ground.

If we had more players, then the econ players could do what Rome did & hire mercs - countries that don't get a Jones for stealing from other players or destroying their hard work for profit, but like to fight for the hell of it. nothing stalls an attacker better than suddenly coming under attack by a third party. Looked into buying out Keyman's countries on WG & just fighting - & then found out you cant attack for 21 months lol. Still maintain that it takes too long to build an army. MOB's advantage is 3 years of stockpiling military, it takes a good year to become an avarage military power. Someone said that a war world that runs 10 times faster than LU would occupy the war fiends. Build a strong military in 3 real months - one month in WP & fight fight fight. Recovery wouldn't be so impossible. Just rambling thoughts

Hordo, you can build a very potent army in 3 real game months. If I spent a whole year, I would have the strongest military.

Of course there should be a middle ground, there are a few fairly simple tweaks that I think would go a long way.

Extended declaration time - your idea is good, my original idea was to give the player being declared upon the option: Start war immediately, start war in 4 game months or start war in 8 game months...but more time is still reasonable, I guess I just wouldn't want it forced on myself if someone declares on me.

Classification, Econ or Military - The president is classified, not the country. That in addition to limiting the mil assets to say, 10T, in any given country would eliminate the warlords from using it to hide and build...plus make it costly to switch from one to the other, either with a GC cost or a very long waiting period before one can declare war...like 1-3 real months. Econ players are continuously protected but pay an additional cost, less than or equal to the current WP costs, probably equal though...as has been said, it really isn't hard to build a econ slave that makes 115B per month. On the war side, limited war protection, whatever you can build up plus say 2 boosters per real month for extended times away.

Federations - Perhaps allowing federation members (must be in federation at time of war declaration) who counter-declare to have their war start at the same time as their mates who have been declared upon, I think you kind of cover this in your method, just another possible way to do it.

I have more but my mind is going blank for some reason :S.

Ultimately, I think the biggest problem is that the few of us who do know the war engine and know how to create both effective offensive and defensive strategies haven't done our part. When only 10-15 or 5% or whatever small number of players really know the war engine it becomes impossible to have fair competition and we haven't been exactly...ummm...forthcoming?...with the information or done our part to train others. That is something that we as a group have already started discussing and I hope the rest of you out there who have the knowledge will do the same (that means you too Barney ).

I know it's hard to see through the BS sometimes or the hurt feelings which are sometimes justified and sometimes not, but the real truth is it isn't fun to 'raid', it's quite boring...that is literally just a bunch of clicking...maybe for the really greedy that is amusing, but it isn't for me...nor my fed mates. If that is what we wanted, frankly, LU would be a wasteland and WGC wouldn't exist. We want real competition, whatever rule changes or training or anything else that needs to be done to get it, we're going to work on it and support it.

I think your idea is a great first step though and will certainly help the situation.

Hordo - Nice to see you around still Just FYI, the stuff we had that would have brought down a federation double the size of The Mob on LU, was built in less than three months. You can build a lot faster than you think, msg me at my main and I'll share...I know you guys dislike us, but I like you guys...war with you was actually fun...I wouldn't mind making it more challenging.

well, i don't like how war would become a popularity contest, though. but i do like the concept of giving new players more time to react, and possibly find (hire?) some friends

although, as far as giving econ players some protection, you may really want to revisit the war engine.

today, i took down 99 I wings, with 3k fighters. If presidents where allow to set up their own targeting for weapons, units, or wings. It would make certain aspects to war much different..

also, limiting the total number of units that could be created per Game month, in the above example, my 3k fighters flew 33 missions in about 1 game day. I don't think my country has enough war hospitals to rehabilitated my drug addicted pilots!!!

as far as limiting number of units created per GM. it could be limited based on the number of bases. for instance, each offence base would allow you to create 5 units per month (for example.) Bases use a huge amount of manpower, so for a player to have the ability to create many f/b wings, would drain allot of their manpower into bases, not weapons. also, these bases would need to be defended... or be destroyed, reducing the unit capacity of the aggressor

same would apply to I or H wings in relation to d air bases... you see where i'm going with this. perhaps the total number of bases would also create a total number of units at one time... like, for example, if you want to have 100 I wings, and 30 H wings, a D aribase could support say 15 at a time, so you'd need 9 airbases. And as an extra precaution to protect newbs, units would not be automatically disbanded if their base is destroyed.

meaning an aggressive player, would have to devote manpower to non-weapons, increasing the burden of their military, with out increasing its power, (at least in relation to what we have now,) so defensive players with large groups of I and H wings, have the possibility of pushing war long enough for them to actually figure out whats going on...

i also think this would encourage weapons such as OAAMB and such, as players try to find new ways into a country, and find ways to conserve their use of air power... Creating a viable ground game. (with a unit max for both sides on the ground,)

i think these things would slow down how quickly we can blow through weapons and ammo, if we had to be more carefull, knowing we can only dismantle/recreate units so many times.

WB your mind is going blank because your head is full of shite.

Nice thread Barney.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHAHHA

thats what i have to say

i guess a possible issue with barny's pressure idea...

you may have a personal enemy, who can now involve themselves, in everything you do. they can declare war in your favor, to steal your kills, they could declare war against you... the person could follow you around, and would have 24-48 hours, what ever it is, to involve themselves, and their would be nothing you could do about it.

in fact, i think we can all think of some one, that would find herself a reason to be involved in every war on a planet...and she would have plenty of time to.

She stole one today.

although i guess their'd be a couple of ways around the issue i mentioned above.

the initial presidents involved in the "pressure," would be able to remove another president from the conflict, who enters their side, that they didn't want involved... but some one would still be able to join the side against you, every time you do something... or at least try

and/or the initial president of either side would get the country, if they won, reguardless of who got the last shot. although because so many countries might be involved, that may not work. just a thought that could be worked.

funny you make mention of people getting involved in things that don't concern them. That is exactly what the mob has done repeatedly.

EO delares war on UC on behalf of GREF.
Because they 'harbored' me too long.

I see the first GREF war as a continuation of revenge attacks from AF members against John L. And the second war as a continuation of the first war directly trgeting me for supporting John L.

None of which had anything to do with EO or the UC harboring me.

You guys have constantly declared on countries I have decd on took the last shot and laughed away. Now I give you a taste of your own mmedicine, and I 'stole' one today, lmao.

Again we are faced people doing things then ,yet being opposed to others following suit. Hypocritical conversation at best is what this is. No different than the c3s issue, WP issue, or any other issue you bring up.

Seems to me you guys want to have a monopoly on whatever strengthens you, and weakens anyone else' position so long as it benefits you.

"We loved to use c3s, but not be attacked by c3s, we loved using WP, but now everyone knows how to use wp, we love declaring behind Wendy, but don't want her returning the favor."

Typical hypocrisy understated.

I have to say me and LoLo did a number on Jee, poor guy isn't even home. That ganging up on a country really works ;)

I love the fed motto too LoLo, "I am not a new president", you fight like Iki. I miss Iki so much.

Good points orbiter. I remember when JoJo stole one from me;P

Remember that JoJo? LOL. Was one of the funniest lines, something like..."dont bitch Rubble. You just got out played."

The option to remove unwanted help, before war, sounds better then the initial president getting the countries.

this is likely too cumbersom an idea. The GM dont seem to have the ability to code the game full time.

Likely need some simple solutions.

Would be nice if the defender had 2.5 times the spending space during the initial 1.5 days waiting for the war to go active.

Would be nice to have what ever def you have inactive, as long as you had 50% active when you were dec'd, become active by war start.