| Tom Willard (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 09:42 pm 
This is a proposal put to a vote at the UN and rightly rejected.
CarlosG is falsely accused.
a huge amount of ammunition disappeared indeed from the country.
However, the ammunition disappeared AFTER the sale of the country.
At the time of the sale, the country had all the assets in place and its value was as expected.
several hours after the sale, the weapons and ammunition disappeared.
we have dug this out in all details as we know exactly what was moved, where to and when.
we have detailed logs and we know what was at each space center, country stock etc. during each month run and between these runs.
The following is an absolutely FALSE and baseless accusation.
The Resolution was a proposal by President John Henry Eden with the following motivation:
CarlosG is a scammer.... He lied to me on a country purchase...He said that the country had 310T in military assets...which the game did show...but he secretly moved majority of the weapons to CG 3000 before the game reset...After the reset, it stated less than 30T in military assets..no drought I will get my gc back from the gm, but I want to do everything possible to make him pay...including a boycott....It's up to the great players of this world to punish this guy with extreme prejudice. Let's stand together and vote for this proposal and boycott CG 3000.
The GM did not promise any compensation.
The GM received a mail message accusing carlosG and looked into it using all the data available to him.
CarlosG has respectfully done what was agreed. |
| President John Henry Eden | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 10:22 pm
When I talked about compensation, I was told from Blueserpent yesterday that normally if there was any wrong doing from the sale, it would be reverted by the GM...I never mentioned that there was any agreement with you in the dialogue. Thanks for posting what I said and proving me right. Now...lets get to nitty gritty..shale we...
I purchase a country from carlosG that reported it had 310T in military assets and like 200T in country. Did my fancy math calculations and decided to purchase it for 2000gc. It had high defense index and good offense index....I look in the defense page and saw that it had like 500K in helicopter missiles and some battery missiles....no weapons at all.....Now, can you please Tom....how can a country have good defense indexes with almost nothing in defense? And the offensive index were good but had almost no weapons. It did have some ammo that there was allot of...some types, but not 310T worth...seriously...and the ammo that was there was the "can't sell on the open market type". Figures....And in a few game months the game read that there was less than 30T in military assets....Please wise Tom...explain this?.......I did get your e-mails regarding some shuttle purchases......was moving the "can't sell on the open market ammo to my stock pile in my main....If I can't sell them...thats what I do |
| President John Henry Eden | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 10:29 pm
Tom, Tom, Tom.....now what am I going to do with you?....lol Got your second e-mail....I know big numbers are hard to calculate, but don't get confused with what I have in my stock pile on Raven Rock.....alot of that was already there from my past investments...now I can hold your hand and go threw every little asset to clear the confusion. |
| President John Henry Eden (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 10:40 pm
O... parading that my proposal got rightfully rejected, Tom.......seriously?! What I proposed was just a slap on the hand for CarlosG. Now he will face a more dyer consequence of my rage,thanks to you.. of course. You will see shortl. |
| Tom Willard | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 10:58 pm
I tried to resolve this with you mailing questions to you and trying to hear your side of the story.
Now you came here to continue the discussion.
fine with me.
You are forcing me to reveal what we have seen on the logs.
this is not so good. It is in fact very very serious.
you have accused another player of wrong doing, asked us to ban him and proposed a vote against him in the SC.
nothing was moved away from the country until 3 hours after you bought it.
I saw all the weapons in the country after you bought it.
i saw them moving into the space center and disappearing from the statistics but not disappearing from our logs. You do see the spike in the value on the assets report.
Then I saw them moving on. lots of shuttles to Raven Rock. I saw how much ammunition and how many weapons were on Raven rock before, during and after.
This should not have taken place here. You could better discuss it with the GM as we did before by mail. |
| Crafty (Fearless Blue) | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 11:20 pm
If you looked, you would have seen that the defensive index was made from many radar planes, a not unknown stategy as they dont use ammunition. |
| President John Henry Eden (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 11:23 pm
A strategy......for falsifyng the country's defenses? Because thats the only reason why a person would do that...you hear this Tom?.... |
| Tom Willard | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 11:25 pm
In this case, the entire product package that was in dispute was ammunition.
lots of it but ammunition does not have any influence at all on the defense indexes.
there were no major changes in the defense indexes only in the asset values for weapons and ammunition as seen on the assets report for the country.
in addition, the defense indexes are recalculated once in 4 hours. a lot can happen in between.
in this case: ammunition only. |
| Tom Willard | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 11:28 pm
I hear this John Henry.
It has nothing to do with this case and I don't think we can leave this case as if nothing happened.
you proposed to ban this innocent player from the chat and the forum.
you proposed a boycott at the SC.
You wanted us to compensate your "loss" of more than 300T (worth 2000 gold coins).
now what? |
| President John Henry Eden (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 11:50 pm
Don't you see the issue....if the high indexes for defense was just based on radar plan strategy from an a dishonest player...then it makes the deal a scam....Wrongfully advertising and falsifying indexes...So this is the honest player you were talking about on the top of the page....it surely doesn't look like an honest player from where I am standing. He isn't an innocent player...I can't make it any clearer, and your shocked from my actions ... (scratches his head).......You have a list of what was transferred back and forth...like you paraded on this post....then undo this dishonest deal then...he gets his crap back...I get my 2000gc back and the stuff just moved there. Problem solved!....Then I will be happy Tom..O so very happy. |
| President John Henry Eden (Little Upsilon) | Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 12:21 am
Refusing to make an example out of him will make trouble for you in the long run, Tom. By letting him get off with no consequence will give many people the idea its ok to scam people this way on the market. Clearly from what Craft posted, this has happened more than once. Me selling the zillions of radar planes could have made a dent with assets. The issue was military asset value, not just ammunition....I like you Tom, you got spunk and fun to argue with...lol I see why Super like too..lol |
| Tom Willard | Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 12:40 am
I cannot believe you keep this on. There was no high defense index and it did not change much as you perfectly know because everything you moved out was ammunition and it does not change the defense index.
The facts are now clear to everyone. |
| Crafty (Fearless Blue) | Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 11:33 am
Hush now JH.
Using radar planes is akin to using just MIBs to get levels. Its common practice. Buyer beware, you should of checked the country thoroughly before you bought, no one would mind taking off secrecy for that. Also the stocks in that country were not of CarlosG's doing, they were the previous owners.
You cant argue against the GM, they have the facts.
Best you settle down and try to rebuild your reputation mate. |
| Accordion_This (Little Upsilon) | Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 11:47 am
Not taking sides here, but Tom, once again, as a GM, it's not your job to argue with players on the forums. The first post here is from you, declaring that something that JHE said was false. Now, even if what he said *was* false, as a player, he can say whatever he wants about other players. If I want to claim that I am Lord of Simcountry, that's my right as a player. If Hezekiah wants to claim that he has a god-given right to rule LU, or if X wants to claim that Y is a douche, whatever - he/they have the right to do so.
You, on the other hand, have no such right. You are not a player in this game. You can't be shouted down by other players or decced on. You can cite statistics, revoke memberships, ban, etc. You can do this because you are a GM, NOT a player. And it's because of this GM status that you have no right to involve yourself in Simcountry politics.
You need to understand something that Jonni and the other GMs seem to fully comprehend - YOU ARE NOT A PLAYER. If you're posting on the forums, it should be to announce an update or help answer questions about that update. You should NOT be getting involved in the politics of Simcountry or arguing with its players. Shit like this is what is causing this game to lose all of its members.
Once again, you can ban me from the forums for this if you so choose. But, if you do, you'll just be proving me right, and showing yourself to be not a GM, but a wannabe player of Simcountry.
Oh, and one last thing: as a player, I shouldn't have to tell a GM what his role is in the game. I know I sound negative, but seriously, man - this is getting tiresome. |
| Keto | Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 02:11 pm
Tommi has every right to post in the forums just like everyone else.
Someone needs to police the forums. |
| Accordion_This (Little Upsilon) | Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 06:00 pm
I'm not saying he has no right to police the forums. He has every right to police the forums, remove Nazi material, swearing, abuse, etc. He also has every right to mediate this dispute between JHE and CG. What he has no right to do is get involved in SC politics. It's like if God got involved in world politics. It wouldn't be world politics anymore, it would just be God telling us how to run the world.
I understand that unfair accusations may have been leveled at CG. JHE should not have brought it to the Security Council. But it's not Tommi's job to tell the SC that. The SC should be deciding that for itself, in a vote, as it did and would have done without GM intervention. |
| Jo Salkilld (White Giant) | Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 08:31 pm
The main reason for the GMs to get involved in this one, it seems, is because they have information that the rest of us don't have: detailed logs of what was and wasn't in the country and when, relating to when it was sold.
Disputes on this forum are often a case of supposition, without any proof being available as to whether the accused party did or didn't do what they have been accused of. People tend to make assumptions of all sorts, many of which have very viable alternative explanations, but too often we jump to the wrong conclusion. All too often, other players hear the accusation and decide without proof.
When a dispute carries the weight of the Security Council on one side, the other side is disadvantaged, especially if they are an innocent party. On these occasions, if the GMs are able to clarify something ... if they have the proof ... then they are in a unique position to ensure the Security Council does not become a tool for false accusation and vendetta and I, for one, have no problem with them sharing it with the players.
Hugs and respect
Jo |
| David Walker (Little Upsilon) | Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 09:01 pm
JHE's accusation was made public and was an accusation of the breaking of game rules and not part of game play. Game play was being used to take because of the accusation.
The 2 should be seperate. People play with whatever strategy they choose but the game rules are managed by the GMs and not the SC or players.
Tom was absolutely right to make the post. |
| Orbiter (Little Upsilon) | Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 02:26 am
if i was talking on the telephone, and some one was talking to me, like john henry was talking to tom, i'd hang up the phone. |
| Keto (Little Upsilon) | Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 03:11 am
lol |
| Accordion_This (Little Upsilon) | Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 11:26 am
Maybe so, Orbiter, but the problem here is that JHE should have been dealt with in private. GMs have no right to become involved in world politics, period.
And Jo - I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree that, in some ways, CG was disadvantaged, but that does not excuse Tom's behaviour. The Security Council should be making up its own mind, not having its mind made up for it by the GMs. Likewise, the Simcountry community should be forming their own opinions of players, not being told by the GMs what to think.
Let's also remember that the only GM to engage in arguments with players, insulting matches, and world politics has been Tom. Jonni, unlike Tom, is and always has behaved like a GM - he helps players understand the game, he talks about updates, he manages the game. Tom, unlike Jonni, has always behaved like a player - arguing over updates, getting involved in world politics, and conducting personal vendettas against players in the form of forum bans. |
| Tom Willard (Fearless Blue) | Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 01:04 pm
Read what I said when I came up with the facts.
I said that this should have been handled in private using mail and this is how i tried to handle it.
JHE decided to put it on the forum.
I happen to be the only one here who could see the truth through this scam and I had to clear the name of a innocent player who was accused of inventing it.
Although I think W3C is humbly entitled to an opinion concerning issues around the game, in this case, I was just stating the facts.
This is no case of opinions or choosing sides.
This is a case of one player accusing another of stealing from him while he himself was running a scam to hide the loot.
This case caused us too much work in searching, unpacking many backed up databases and carefully exposing the facts, making sure nobody is wrongly accused. It was half a day work for two engineers.
we are already taking additional measures, to improve logs, prolong the periods data is stored and adding details that will make it harder to hide the loot and make it much easier for us to uncover.
Some of this will show up in the game news in the coming weeks. |
| Accordion_This (Little Upsilon) | Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 03:47 pm
W3C is entitled to its opinion, but Tom - you are not entitled to get involved in Simcountry politics. You are a GM, not a player.
JHE did not try to "scam" anyone. JHE thought that he had been unfairly treated and sought to get back at the alleged perpetrator through the SC. *IF* JHE did lie to the SC, it doesn't actually matter - if he wants to lie in a resolution, he is entitled to. It's not your job to prevent players from engaging in the political side of this game in the way that they choose to.
If you wanted to clear the name of CG, you could have done it by emailing CG to let him know that the data logs prove him innocent, and let CG himself post a message on the forums to show his innocence. CG is a player who is perfectly capable of speaking for himself and does not require a GM to argue his case for him.
And Tom - I hadn't actually heard of this "scam" until you publicly disgraced JHE. As far as I am concerned, this is a disagreement between two players that has been made worse by your intervention. Next time, maybe just let things take their own course, or intervene in private? You say you tried to handle this in private, and yet it wasn't really public until you posted this message.
What you were *trying* to do was noble. The way you went about it was not. Instead of giving CG proof and allowing events to take their (player-driven) course, you intervened and inadvertently disgraced JHE. If you'd just stuck to your original plan - private messages - this stuff wouldn't be an issue.
It's all a matter of conduct, Tom. Taking sides in politics, disgracing players, arguing on the forum - it's bad conduct. |
| Zhangliao (Fearless Blue) | Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 04:45 pm
I do agree with Josias in his post. TOM WILLARD has a right to discuss in the forum with players. What ACCORDING THIS said is not what I had read in this topic. I am not speaking for TOM, but in previous posts, TOM WILLARD tried to talk about this problem with JHE in private. However, JHE forced TOM to go to public
Quote: " I tried to resolve this with you mailing questions to you and trying to hear your side of the story.
Now you came here to continue the discussion.
fine with me"
I don't see Tom disgaced JHE. Tom spoke in angry tone. This tone could be understood because he knew the truth. Any unfair problem or tricky strategy in the game should be open to public if privacy can't take place |
| David Walker (Little Upsilon) | Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 04:55 pm
Accordion, I welcome a GM that is prepared to engage with players and to debate game policy and development.
An accusation of breaking the game rules is not part of game politics.
In this case it was solely JHE who made this public and further caused it to be even more public. |
| Slade | Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 05:25 pm
Let me state that I am CarlosG and CarlosG is Slade. I changed my name back to Slade to prevent any further confusion.
I've tried to hold my tongue for the past three days and told the GM's that I wouldn't go public. I won't reveal any private discussions that I had with GM's and won't comment on the specfics of this case. My orginal post can be found in the LU forums under the name of CarlosG.
Let me address Accordian because that is what is really irrating me the most. I was in fact accused of "scamming", which has now been clearly proving otherwise. I was accused of taking military assets out of a country and then selling the country for a overpriced amount. I was then slandered and asked that I be punished. The GM's and I did discuss privately, via email, and was happy to learn of the truth. I compare it to buying a car from someone and then removing the engine and the buyer asking for his money back. The GM's were trying to conduct a private investigation, VIA EMAIL, but the accuser wanted to make it public. This was a fact based case and the GM's have every right to defend their fact based findings, especially when the accuser demands that it be made public. The "scam", which I was accused of, was made public when I defended myself on the LU forums.
I thank the GM's for doing a full investigation to clear my name. I've played this game for 2 years and played with honor. I don't lie, don't cheat, and don't accuse the innocent of a crime they didn't commit. I have absolutely nothing else to say about this crime against me, nor will I follow-up with any comments you make. I know now that I need to choose who I do business with on a more calculated basis and will do so in the future.
Best Regards,
Slade....aka...CarlosG |
| SirSmokesAlot (Fearless Blue) | Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 06:44 pm
Case Closed! Slade is innocent. Tom is right on this one. |
| Accordion_This (Little Upsilon) | Friday, September 23, 2011 - 02:31 am
Oh, for crying out loud! My argument is NOT that Slade is guilty. Slade is innocent. My argument is NOT that Tom should not have given Slade the evidence he needed to defend himself. My argument is that Tom, as a GM, should not be speaking and arguing angrily with players on the forums as he has here and many times before. It is poor conduct and it will cause players to leave Simcountry.
I'm not fussed about the case of Slade and Eden. Frankly, I'm glad it was resolved justly. But that doesn't excuse Tom's bad behaviour, and it doesn't excuse the fact that he doesn't seem to know how to act as a GM.
Let's remember that we're not talking about a player here, we're talking about a GM. Should a teacher in a classroom argue angrily with a student because that student has been arguing, outside of class, with another student? No. Should a GM argue angrily with a player in the public forums instead of in private? No.
The one to bring this to the forums? Tom. The one to argue? Tom. The one who has argued and insulted players in the past because they don't like updates? Tom. Learn from your friend Jonni, Tom, and act like a real GM.
As for all the arguments coming from the players, let me reiterate: I'm not against Slade or against the showing of evidence. I'm just against Tom's conduct. I'm also against JHE's conduct, to an extent, but he's a player - if he wants to argue angrily, he can. |
| David Walker (Little Upsilon) | Friday, September 23, 2011 - 03:18 am
I'm happy that Tom announced in the public forum to allow for the impartial provision of information.
I'm happy that Tom engages with players to give reasons for game development and seeks player feedback.
I'm happy that Tom answers many questions in the forum and helps players.
If you don't like it, you could always ask Tom to ignore you lol. |
| Keto (Golden Rainbow) | Friday, September 23, 2011 - 05:05 am
Accordian, I think its good for the GMs to step in and argue if they need to. This is their game and we need to follow the rules. They would be the ones to clarify issues, like Tom did, and thats what we as a player base needs, someone to moderate what the real truth is, so all the second guessing can be put to rest.
Tom bringing it to forums first is ok because the GMs are probably tired of all the accusations by members with no way for those accused members to prove otherwise.
How many posts have u read about one topic, and all of a sudden it turns into a fighting match of words between players accusing one or the other of certain things? I read it everyday, almost every post. Why do you think certain people have been banned? |
| Orbiter (White Giant) | Friday, September 23, 2011 - 05:21 am
truth be told, i don't want them involved in everything. but their are certain things that no one else can clear up. this is one. and john henry was working on making this as public as he could. it was necessary for this to be open to the public. and honestly, it was john henry that was doing the arguing, and belittling. the only thing that Tom did was to stand up for the truth. which was pretty embarrassing for john henry.
frankly, i looks like john henry made his bed. approaching every thing in sim country, with the attitude that the GM is always wrong... well maybe you should rethink that notion!!
you know, Tom, thanks!
I take back half the stuff i said about ya  |
| Noproblem (Fearless Blue) | Friday, September 23, 2011 - 05:25 am
Any more disputes will be quickly resolved once the database is altered to easily access all data. That alone makes reading this worth it! |
| Accordion_This (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 04:22 am
Sigh. Had a post ready, accidentally hit back button. qq. Here's a summary:
- Keto, you've accused SuckerPunch of being a multi ("I smell a multi"). Certainly, that's not a public accusation of scamming, but it is an implied public accusation of cheating, the very thing you and David have been railing against.
David, I'm glad Tom does the things you listed, but I wish he would do them with a little less:
- Public disgracing of players
- Forum bans on players who disagree or argue
- Arguments with players who don't agree with his answers or who suggest changes he doesn't agree with
- Ignoring of proposals or questions that are "too hard"
- Angry, sometimes rude, responses to players.
I'm not smearing Tom. Tom does good things - he just does them in a very unethical way sometimes. What I am trying to say is, Tom, act a bit more like a GM. Just like a Prime Minister needs to behave in an appropriate manner because she is in a powerful position, a GM needs to behave in an appropriate manner, because he has a great deal of power in the game. Stop doing the things I listed above, and you'll be the greatest GM ever, I'm sure. |
| David Walker (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 05:14 am
Accordion,
Don't worry, I've typed a long post only to lose it in the past. It is frustrating!
I've not seen Tom do the tings above you describe. Arguing is allowed but players that disrespect other players or the GMs have crossed the line. I do not see that as disgracing.
Many players argue and disagree with the GMs (including myself in the past) and they do not stop that. Even with some strongly worded posts they still answer them kindly, but some players push it too far, like calling for a boycott of the game or directly attacking a player of GM and not conducting a good argument.
GMs will often look into things they cannot explain straight away.
I think the GMs reply very kindly compared to what some players write and maybe some players need swifter and firmer responses.
In my 7/8 years of play, I have argued, disagreed and posed difficult questions to the GMs privately and publicly, and I've never been banned once.
I think you should concentrate on any arguments in hand and less on the style of a GM. I think they're often rather restrained, and as they're human, maybe they bite sometimes when a player has pushed them.
I don't agree with everything the GMs do but a good argument is needed in anything. |
| Lorelei | Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 08:00 pm
Dear Accordian,
This whole thing with John Henry and um SuckerPunch smacks of something not quite right...... I mean really, SuckerPunch a few days ago was coming into chat as a visitor without a voice,,,,, now he/she is in the chatroom yappin' it up, and John Henry just randomly chose this player out of the blue to give his country to???? (Rolls Eyes). I believe Keto said it smelled of a multi account situation, not that it is. And if this is how he feels, and in this case, I think the thought justifiable given the circumstances, he should be able to state his view. |
| hymy1 (Kebir Blue) | Monday, September 26, 2011 - 07:31 am
Yeah, except tom hasn't provided any proof to back up his story either. |
| David Walker (Little Upsilon) | Monday, September 26, 2011 - 07:48 am
Tom told us of the proof he has and I think it would be ridiculous to expect it to be published |
| hymy1 (Kebir Blue) | Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 09:45 am
Hi David,
How do you know the proof exists, if you haven't seen it? For that matter if you do see it, you still don't know it exists. Tom could have just made it up, or more likely was smoking too much weed when he thought he saw it. Point is: No proof exists, and you poor dumb bastards just believe what your told. |
| Orbiter (Kebir Blue) | Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 11:10 am
with logic like that... |
| Crafty (Golden Rainbow) | Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 03:11 pm
This is getting stupid.
Last time I click on this thread. |
