| Friday, October 31, 2014 - 01:26 pm |
Failure of Countries and Bankruptcies
It is quite easy to make countries in the game, profitable.
Even with little care for education, health etc. the economy can do moderately good and be profitable. When the player takes very good care of the economy, the country can be very profitable and provide a lot of cash for expansion, including the possibility of a large army.
Although hard to fail, it is also possible to let the country deteriorate and fall into very bad shape.
Countries that fail are declared bankrupt and the president loses them.
Having countries can bring you success in the game but you have a responsibility to keep them afloat.
If you do not, they will bankrupt.
Countries that fail see two stages of failure. When a country is considered close to bankruptcy, control is in fact taken over by an automatic procedure and it makes an effort to fix the finances.
When even that fails, the country will bankrupt.
Simcountry allows countries to flourish and develop into very powerful entities. It does not allow countries to continue when they are bankrupt.
Country "Close to bankruptcy"
When a country has negative cash it should fix it quickly. when cash is going under -1T, it is considered close to bankruptcy. At that stage an automatic procedure will try to save the country.
How to get out of this condition: Transfer money from the account to the country and make it cash positive. The money can originate from another country in the account.
Take a loan for the country. The loan can be taken elsewhere and the money can be moved to the failed entity.
A country is also considered close to bankruptcy if the value of its materials is negative.
Negative value of materials means that the country has severe shortages of all kinds of materials including materials the population needs to survive.
Such shortages cause MANY people to leave the country and the population will diminish.
What causes such severe shortages: The player can stop automatic orders to cut the spending. Also cash shortages (cash under -4T) will stop all orders by the country and materials will go short. If cash is very low, a country cannot place orders.
How to fix this: Take loans, and let the country place orders to resolve the shortages.
Move money into the country and make it cash positive. It will immediately start placing orders for the materials it needs and you may need to move more money into it to continue the ordering until all shortages are resolved. Migration from the country will decline quickly.
What happens if the automatic procedure take over?
If the country is nearly bankrupt, an automatic procedure will start fixing what can be fixed.
Salaries will decline, reducing the cost for government and corporations.
The education will be tuned and workers and professionals will become available in numbers that will allow more hiring. If there are enough workers, new and profitable corporations will be set up to reduce unemployment and increase production.
Education health and transportation will be fixed slowly (if needed).
The army will quickly go into the reserves, reducing cost and freeing workers for the economy.
As a result, costs will decline, income will increase and the country will become profitable. the procedure will take some time.
In all cases, we have seen great results. When in very bad shape, the procedure will be very long and you can shorten it by moving cash into the country.
We have seen statements saying that the procedure fails. All such statements are baseless and come from players who proved unable to maintain their countries in the first place.
The procedure will continue as long as the country is close to bankruptcy.
How can you stop the automatic repair and regain control?
The procedure can be stopped by fixing the "Close to bankruptcy" conditions as described before.
Countries in very large empires may be harder to fix because government cost remains relatively high although government costs too will decline rapidly with the decline of salaries.
If all failed, and the country assets remain negative for a period of more than two weeks, the country will bankrupt.
What happens at bankruptcy of a country in an empire?
The country is gone and out of your control. It is not coming back.
The amount of negative assets is inherited by the main country in the empire.
Your empire can continue with the other countries but will have to take care of the inherited debt.
What happens at bankruptcy if the country if the last one you have in the entire account?
The country is just gone.
you can immediately start fresh with another country. The debt is gone.
What happens if the country is the last of the empire but the are other empires in the account?
The country is gone but the debt is remembered.
It is not inherited by any of your other empires.
The debt will be back if you start an empire on the same world instead of the one that was bankrupt.
(This is part of Simcountry for many years. It is needed to prevent many ways of fraud when players moved resources between empires and have allowed one empire to bankrupt, get rid of the debt and started a new one to repeat the process.)
Warnings about "close to bankruptcy" and Bankruptcy conditions.
The notification system has specific warning for such conditions. You can set up such notifications and you will receive messages that will allow you to login and fix the failing country.
There are notifications for both "Close to Bankruptcy" conditions and for "Approaching Bankruptcy" showing you that the 14 days period before bankruptcy have begun.
| Friday, October 31, 2014 - 03:27 pm |
In the automated procedures you described, I did not see you mention it raises taxes. Has this changed, or does it still raise taxes?
| Friday, October 31, 2014 - 03:58 pm |
You are right.
We did not change that.
I assume it does, up to 60%.
| Saturday, November 1, 2014 - 12:51 am |
For whatever reason, i transferred money to save a country and it automatically purchases several trillion in materials.
It keeps doing this every time I get it out of the negative, it plummets down into bankruptcy again. I have everything set to automation, but it keeps buying things.
Can someone please help?
| Saturday, November 1, 2014 - 03:52 pm |
I recently started in a new world, without the benefit of the beginner bonus cash.
I found it very helpful to decommission 90% of the military, especially offense.
This saves a vast amount of cash for a new country.
Sell the ammo and equipment as well, if they are in demand.
Build corps that produce relatively low tech goods which are always in demand. Usually you cant go wrong with an oil corp or a chemicals corp, if you don't have 3 or more already, but check the demand in your world first.
Don't be afraid to retool or close money loosing corps in your country. I have found the auto-build of corps in game is not that bad, if you let the corps get a little seasoned and demand remains high(Keep input quality low and on par with the quality you want as you upgrade, and you may find that manually upgrading will allow you to better control your expenses).
Oh, and don't let the unemployed feast on caviar.
Hope this can help with some problems of cash flows.
| Sunday, November 2, 2014 - 11:16 am |
Hi tech corps tend to do better in the long run. Oil and chemicals do, sometimes go into big surplus. Keep in mind that you are giving advice to people who've been playing for years.
| Sunday, November 2, 2014 - 02:48 pm |
I don't pretend to give advice to long-term, experienced players. Just my views to fellow newer players perspective.
| Tuesday, November 4, 2014 - 07:49 am |
We should try to limit advice to things which are true so that we don't damage new players.
| Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 12:41 pm |
I'm getting this message for the first time.
"Close to bankruptcy
The country has sever shortages of all kinds of materials. Such shortages cause many people to leave the country.
Move money into the country or take loans and let the country place orders to resolve the shortages"
This country has 6T in cash and the only supply shortage is -4B construction. Close to bankruptcy? Yeah right.
I told you this could be manipulated Andy. There's an attempt to bankrupt me underway right now. Hydra have team upped and put massive orders in for construction. There's currently a 42B demand for construction. Whilst 1 player does damage the others put orders in trying to drive me to bankruptcy.
Nice try boys. I'm watching this carefully.
| Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 12:54 pm |
Not to worry.
as long as your country assets are >0 the country will not bankrupt.
this is a warning and there are more warnings before anything really happens.
please check the game news (also on the forum) it explains.
also the game documentation is very clear about the exact conditions.
| Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 12:55 pm |
In future wars, construction damage will continue but the numbers are declining to further reduce the cost of war.
| Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 01:02 pm |
I don't understand why I'm getting that message in the first place. My country has 13T total assets. Cash 6T, an FI of 167 but the game is intervening. I don't get it?
The corp salaries in that country have dropped from 300 to 15. Which has tanked my welfare index. Everyone knows that you need high welfare to make good profits so how can this be helping my country?
| Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 01:06 pm |
Andy if your interested in seeing how this develops the countries are Army Group south I, Army Group South II and Army group south III on FB. The country I'm getting the bankruptcy messages is Told Ya on FB
| Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 01:18 pm |
I know how it works.
please read the game news and the reason for the message.
| Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 01:38 pm |
I have read it, several times. I still fail to see why that country is getting the close to bankruptcy message. I meet all the criteria by some margin. I only have neg construction but the other assets should cover that? Where can I find the doc info? What heading is it under?
| Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 01:46 pm |
Just to add the bankruptcy message is very misleading. It says that I have severe shortages of many different products. When I seen that I panicked. After checking there is only 1 product short, Construction. The rest I have ample supply
| Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 10:47 pm |
Andy these warnings are getting very annoying. My country is nowhere near bankrupt and I'm still getting the messages. Pls take a look? My country is called Alba on FB.
Does the Business and trade index effect this? I ask because it's the only bad index I have. Education is 200, Health 140, transport 200 and the FI is 170 and rising.
You say don't worry, well I am. If there's nothing to worry about why the messages and the big red box across the top of my country?
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:06 am |
The value of your materials is showing on the assets tab under finance.
there is a line with the value of materials in the country.
if that number is negative, you get this message.
if your cash is under -1T you get it too.
Is that very complex?
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:12 am |
I don't remember the text mentioning any index in connection with bankruptcy.
please read the text at the top of this page.
it is very clear.
That country is short on construction and the assets tab shows value of materials negative.
not much, under 1T.
so if you purchase some construction, or even other materials, and the value of materials goes above zero, the condition will disappear.
Assets are at 12T+ so there is no problem.
for bankruptcy, the total assets must be negative and even then, you have 14 days to fix it.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:19 am |
No andy not complex but negative stock throws the country into chaos. The auto feature triggers the gov't salaries and state corp salaries to very low salaries. The welfare index goes down lowering profits. Your army goes into reserves. Taxes made from the country also goes down cuz people make way less money then before. You destroy someones progress in the game over negative stocks. What if you have to wait several game years for an item? You start getting negative stock cuz of the situation of the market. Your country is at war? you lose it cuz of some negative stock?
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:24 am |
I've had the country for 8 days. I have gotten these message since I took it. I've sold weapons and ammo. The cash is positive but there is negative stock in the country. I'm stripping it so I don't really mind. Gorilla on fb if you wanna check.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:27 am |
Not chaos. Hunger. people start leaving in large numbers.
Total value of materials negative is very serious.
You always have some materials so you must have severe shortages to have a negative total.
move some money into the country and orders will resume immediately increasing the value of materials.
if you wait long for a specific product, use the immediate orders and you will have it directly.
The measures you describe, result in profitability of the country.
when there is no food and basic product, and people are fleeing the country, very strong measures are needed to reduce cost and bring back profitability.
There is no other solution.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:29 am |
Thanks for looking Andy. I knew the construction was already a problem but as you've seen the country has 12T assets. That's why I don't understand the bankruptcy warnings and the interventions when I have 12T assets? The game is intervening when apart from a slight construction issue the country is in very good shape. 6T cash, great index's apart from the B&T. Calling a country like this close to bankruptcy is a bit of a stretch. Plus the interventions dropping my sals and in turn dropping my welfare doesn't help at all.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:30 am |
Stripping it and then letting it go is a solution.
Just make sure it does not have negative assets total when you let it go because such negative assets are inherited by the main country in the empire.
This is how it works in the last 5 real years (or longer).
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:32 am |
Close to bankruptcy because it has a situation that cannot last.
negative value of materials.
Simcountry does not allow negative value of materials.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:45 am |
Why not Andy? The game has functioned like this for a long time. Now all of a sudden your making statements like " Simcountry does not allow negative value of materials" As if this has always been the case. So why the change?
Bankrupting a country for a shortage of construction is outrageous. It makes no sense at all when the country has every other product it needs, trillions in cash yet for a meesly shortage in construction the country shuts down.
You say it's to help countries who have fallen into trouble. But dropping the sals and the welfare doesn't help at all.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:46 am |
There are no shortages of food or anything to do with civilians. Its military shortages. Mostly maintenance for weapons. It has positive cash and it had millions of negative stock in each maintenance category. Its been 8 days I almost have it totally under control. I understand where your coming from its a serious problem. But understand it had negative stock when I received it after the war. You didn't allow me to correct the problem which I have almost done. As soon as I took it the next month auto features where triggered. Some players are capable of fixing countries I am one of them. I don't need auto features to help me do this. there should be a time frame where these auto features don't kick in after a war to allow the president taking it over to fix it.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 12:57 am |
We were looking at it in the same way.
if there is cash, why is there a shortage.
We will probably add an automatic, immediate purchase order to close the shortage, if the country has the cash.
It will solve the problem in such cases.
Initially we thought that players might see the warning and prefer to place the orders themselves.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 01:01 am |
As to conquered countries, you do have a point.
I think it will disappear.
we have reduced the damage caused by war, the numbers are declining.
There are many materials in the country and one negative should not get the total to negative.
If construction shortages will become even smaller, the total will not be negative.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 01:02 am |
Thank you Andy. I've been trying to get it under control since I took it.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 01:16 am |
Nooooo automatic features I admit to being a tight arse and not wanting to spend an extra 20% on immediate orders. I was wanting to fix the issue over time. So what if things don't get built from a lack of construction or my people don't have eggs for a while or no butter to put on there toast for a few months. They can hack it. Though my construction companies might like an immediate order feature.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 01:19 am |
But then again I think that'll be exploited in war aswell. Doing damage forcing your enemy to buy immediate construction whilst your buddies jack up the price. I don't like the thought of that.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 08:02 am |
Andy - I think there is a simple solution here to avoid screwing with active players. First, give a 2 day warning before these automatic systems take hold, that gives a window for active players to actually notice there is a problem and correct it. Second, allow unlimited immediate orders for all negative items. I personally went through trying to recover a country that had massive negative materials due to my own inactivity and the system was constantly fighting against me as I tried to rebound while even using GC's to boost the spending space.
I understand what you're trying to accomplish by having the system respond to negative materials, but your own automatic system is fighting against itself when players are actually trying to fix their own situation.
The fact that the military deactivates so quickly but it takes so long to reactivate it makes no sense and puts players at serious risk if a war happens to be declared on them at a time when they happen to fall into negative materials or negative 1T+ in cash. When you have large countries all it takes is a severe shortage on a world for the former to happen or a severe shortage to be cured to create the latter. The -1T level makes sense for a c3 sized country but it makes zero sense for a country of 300M where there are often several trillion or more in products purchases that go through in a day or two.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 09:04 am |
There are TWO WEEKS of warnings of pending bankruptcies.
There is a notification you can set to warn you.
we will now add a mail you get for each country that is in that situation. (negative assets).
you are right on the immediate orders when you are trying to fix shortages.
They are already looking into it.
However, to avert bankruptcy, you just need to fix your assets. moving money into the country will solve the problem, even if materials remain negative.
Normally the total material value + the army assets and government assets together are compensating for any cash shortages and total assets will not become negative.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 11:03 am |
Serpent makes a good point Andy. I was only away for 4 days and returned to find my 2 war slaves on KB (South Apo and North Apo) in total chaos. Salaries at 30, military deactivating etc. And all this because I forgot to transfer some cash from my account before I left, so they went slightly negative (about 2-3 T while I had over 200T sitting in my account). I'm trying to fix it but it is a very slow process (reactivating and raising salaries).
I have two proposals: 1. When there's cash in the portal account, the game should transfer automaticaly enough cash to keep the country from going in the negative. 2. Allow us to raise salaries and activate weapons faster when trying to recover from such situations.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 01:16 pm |
There maybe 2 weeks before bankruptcy but the game starts intervening right away. Dropping sals, raising taxes, sending the army inactive.
There needs to be a window before auto functions kick in. I think that's what everyone has a problem with. The immediate intervention even in very good countries like my 1 you seen Andy.
Most players posting on this issue are successful at the game and know how to fix there countries.
My proposal is this. STOP intervening in our countries. A 2 week window to fix the issue is perfect. Aslong as the game stays out and doesn't start ruining my settings. After 2 weeks we loose our country if the issue isn't solved. I think everyone would accept that.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 04:43 pm |
we really do not want to take cash out of players accounts. This goes too far.
It is very easy however, to set a notification that will mail you or send you a message in the way you want it to warn you on some level of cash and other parameters.
any suggestions for new notifications are welcome but quite a few are already available.
You can setup any warning you want.
low cash, even lower cash, it is all possible.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 09:20 pm |
What about a box that we can tick if we want the game to automatically transfer cash from our account to prevent such situations?
I agree that taking cash out of players accounts is a step too far, but if the player has consented to it I think it's ok.
| Thursday, November 6, 2014 - 11:11 pm |
the -4B in construction will cause a negative in supplies available and then the automation system will wreck the country causing salaries to eventually drop to nothing. Ive seen one country with almost nil salaries
make construction except from the calculation
as for building companies goes make the auto system build the ones with high amounts like chem, oil, and the other mining cos. Instead of junk profit companies like military
| Friday, November 7, 2014 - 01:18 am |
Does the game manage edu priorities at all during bankruptcy edu priorities are a big problem for a lot of players
| Friday, November 7, 2014 - 07:43 am |
Andy - I don't think there is a concern from players that are actually active that we'll lose countries due to bankruptcy, the concern is that the automatic systems create massive problems when a relatively small swing in assets occurs. Like I said, a 300M country can swing several trillion in cash in a day if there are large shortages on a world.
There are a few good options, here are mine in order of preference:
1. Allow a player to refuse the automatic systems, if that's selected then give at least a week before the system intervenes, that week can be included in the window of potential bankruptcy for the country so that the system can still shut down the country in the same amount of time.
2. Allow immediate orders on negative products without a spending space requirement and allow players to reactivate all weapons as long as there are workers to service them, cash is positive and negative materials have been corrected. You can add to this the ability to restore salaries for both public and private workers to the prior level immediately.
3. Go with Christos' suggestion above that a player can select the option in each country to automatically transfer in cash from direct trading account if the cash goes negative. This is a good option as long as the player has the ability to select it for each country.
I have to imagine that options 1 and 3 are the easiest to put together. Option 1 is the best as it gives plenty of time for an active player to intervene without the automatic system screwing up their country and still allows for the country to go bankrupt in the same amount of time.
| Friday, November 7, 2014 - 08:22 am |
I agree with Serpent
Running larger nations sometimes you cant buy supplies and they they do they buy them in massive bulks causing swings.
I think the BEST scenario here is to let people opt out of the intervention for at-least a week like serpent said. Also as an additional form of protection, why cant the empire game cash total be taken into account. The game levels can tell you how much money you have in your empire. I say that as long as that number is positive, the auto features don't intervene.
If you have 5 nations with an average of 6.2T and 1 country has economic issues, its very apparent the player in question has the money needed to fix this issue.
Now if they have 5 nations and the average is a negative number then there is a problem.
| Friday, November 7, 2014 - 08:32 am |
Also as for conquering countries.
I do think the GM should add some sort of rule to allow 100 game months before bankruptcy notices start.
Taking a country will always leave it in negative stock SOMEHOW. Giving the player 100 game months or 2 real weeks to correct the problem is MORE then enough time to deal with a crisis.
I'm in favor of this update but i think the GM needs to tweak it to allow a little bit more time before warning and notifications start posting.
| Friday, November 7, 2014 - 09:08 am |
It looks here like the repair system is new.
It is not.
It has worked like this for years.
the only thing changed is to make it fix the availability of workers more quickly.
the repair of education priorities is part of it from the start.
It was triggered before when cash was low.
At such time, material shortages also occurred.
Now it explicitly checks for negative total value of materials.
With many materials positive, a negative total is quite serious.
Negative construction used to be a large factor. It will become a much smaller factor.
| Friday, November 7, 2014 - 09:09 am |
We are adding the possibility to place many immediate orders if stock is negative.
It will be possible to place such orders without bumping into any purchasing limit, as long as you have the cash to pay for these orders.
This will allow you to resolve the situation at once.
We do not need to add many new features and tricks to make this work. You just need to resolve it and any possible interventions will stop immediately.
A new update, with the immediate purchasing feature will be installed coming Tuesday or Wednesday.
It will also reset the bankruptcy warning back to two weeks and allow everybody much more time to fix.
The "Close to bankruptcy" status will be renamed.
| Friday, November 7, 2014 - 08:29 pm |
Andy I have a suggestion I'd like you guys to consider? With these new rules I'm mostly encountering problems in countries I've just conquered. Mostly due to a lack of construction.
My suggestion is this. Allow us to move construction and other products directly from our account into the country. Currently there's a week delay. I have several B in construction in there but I cant send it. Instead I need to buy or move in through space. Lifting these restrictions would be a big help?
Also I cant send profesionals for a week either.
| Saturday, November 8, 2014 - 04:13 am |
You say it's not new, but if that were true then why are so many players bothered by it all of a sudden? I don't remember mass military deactivations and salaries dropping to nothing when a country went 1T in negative cash. It's certainly new that you can't even go into a country that is negative 1T in cash.
It just doesn't make sense that a country with 100's of trillions in assets goes completely haywire when it falls below 1T in game cash. I'd rather the system force sell assets than start deactivating everything and dropping salaries like crazy.
How about a system that provides automatic loans to countries but secures those loans with assets the country possesses?
| Monday, November 10, 2014 - 08:50 am |
It only happens if you do not move some cash into the country.
It is very easy and quickly done and nothing happens.
The limit used to be -3T. true.
is there a difference? you need to move the cash anyway.
now you just need a loan for 2T and you are in fact back at the point when the limit was -3T.
Also, at bankruptcy, the entire negative assets are inherited. so if your cash is -5T and your materials are negative and the entire assets are -30T, your main country will pay 30T at bankruptcy of that country.
In the past, we tried to prevent bankruptcies.
It caused very strange constructions and they were only taking place in large and very rich accounts.
some countries had a lot of money, some have huge negative assets.
New players, small accounts do not have these problems. They are supported in different ways.
so this is a problem for the rich who can solve it easily.
It is very easy to keep countries very profitable.
In the past months, profits are increasing steadily.
These accounts have the money to solve the problem. They can also let the automatic procedure fix it.
| Monday, November 10, 2014 - 03:31 pm |
I completely agree with you that the bankruptcy issues have gone to far, but what serpent is saying is that if i have a country with 500Billion cash,then spend 3T in month (causing) that means I'm 2.5T in the negative. IMMEDIATELY the system takes over and messes up the country.
What some players are asking is that there be a buffer in new feature before it kicks in.
Please correct me if I'm wrong because im trying to understand everyone's side.
--- Your saying the nation will take loans then accumulate negative cash(during which time it will sell assets to pay back loans)
--- What the players are saying (and have seen) after 1T in loans the auto features kick in which causes the selling of resources and drops in salaries.
| Monday, November 10, 2014 - 03:39 pm |
Also i have a theory on the issue at hand
I have been C3 warring lately to test weapons and have noticed that after i take a nation at war level 3, it does not ALWAY take loans immediately. Sometimes the nation has to wait a month or two, which results in it having negative cash, which causes features to kick in.
It seems like each month it is hit with negative cash balance the features kick in, then the next month the loans kick in and auto feature disappears for the time being.
I think this might be the cause.
If the game is programmed to respond to these negative numbers this might be the reason people are having problems. Negative cash has to appear BEFORE loans can be given.
Could the way loan system works be contributing to this issue?
| Monday, November 10, 2014 - 04:34 pm |
Andy any response on my proposal to allow the movement of construction immediately from the account directly into countries?
I've since learned that you cant move construction through space. So the only way to avoid immediate orders would be what I propose?
| Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 01:48 pm |
Don't spend 3T is you have 0.5T and everything will be fine. You do not do it in a store.
A C3 nation you conquered will never have a negative cash if you move some money into it.
A game month of cash under -1T does not do much. A real month does.
Very few people have problems. we are looking into game statistics.
The ones who have, also have the cash but prefer not to move it to correct the shortages.
Construction can be bought from the portal market. It can be bought from the world market without any limit if you have the cash.
No limit as long as your stock is negative.
You can fix it with a single transaction.
Most players have nothing to do with this and nothing to worry about.
the problem is small and will be resolved as players do not wish to have their countries bankrupted.
They have clear messages about it, they had one week before and two more weeks coming to fix it.
| Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 04:55 pm |
Are we paying market price or being charged 20% extra for immediate orders?