| Monday, November 10, 2014 - 03:58 am |
I've been doing some sums lately on a half built war slave and the figures are insane. The price of weapons and ammo has been falling but there's a catch. A dam big 1. Army maintenance needed completely wipes out any gains made from lower prices.
Here's some figures. This is only a half built war slave remember. It has an air defence, 150 forts defended and 10 strategic carriers.
Airforce Main 4.1B per month
Defence Maint 16.6B per month
Base Maint 1.5B per month
Navy Maint 5.9 B per month
That's a total of 28.1B per month on maintenance alone. I haven't even defended 1 city or corp yet. When I get round to it it'll prob be double or more maintenance needed.
When finished I'll likely be spending 50/60B on maintenance per month. Then I'll have to add all the ammo usage on top of that.
That leads me to the conclusion the cost of war hasn't declined at all. The opposite is true. I remember doing similar sums a year or 2 ago on a fully built war slave. Before maint was added. The figures where about 50/60B per month ammo usage.
I'm prob spending that at the moment on a half built slave when I add everything up.
| Monday, November 10, 2014 - 05:11 pm |
I think that's the way it's supposed to be; this game reflects the way that running a country works in real life. Pretty much every time the United States has gone to war, it has had to take out loans to pay for massive costs.
| Monday, November 10, 2014 - 05:31 pm |
Sorry but it doesn't reflect real life at all. The US as an example doesn't waste Billions in ammo every month firing "training ammo"
I'm not really talking about war here. Apart from a small navy this is the numbers for defence only. It has nothing to do with going to war but protecting yourself properly.
This is on FB aswell, the so called war world. Where it isn't even possible to sustain a defence.
I haven't completed the defence in that country and I already know it's IMPOSSIBLE to maintain. Even a 300 Mill pop country couldn't cover the costs.
| Monday, November 10, 2014 - 08:28 pm |
Its not so much the cost of weapons but the cost of supporting the military.
For example my nation 562,505 man military, It costs me 16,864.33M a month.
I use 16M units of military services which = almost 7B a month.
41% of my entire budget each month is the cost services. Which costs more then maintenance products and salaries COMBINED!!!
If i wanted to self contract military services to myself for a 500,000 man army. I would need 7 military services corperations just to supply myself as is
| Monday, November 10, 2014 - 08:37 pm |
I only posted the maintenance figures as as they're fairly new, to me anyway. It shows the the claims of the costs of war declining are a complete fallacy.
I'm about to test the exact costs for the entire army in a war slave. I will post all the costs then.
| Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 01:26 am |
Well I kept my war costs down by throwing shoes. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cheaper, let me tell ya! :P
| Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 03:09 am |
Ok so I've done the final sums. Remember this is defence only. Every fort defended, all cities/bases plus 50 corps and an airforce. I have more corps than 50 but that seems a reasonable number.
Total costs are 95B per month. That's right folks. 95B every month just to maintain a defence. That's before a single wage is paid to your soldiers.
When you start to add offence weapons in then your cost will most likely sky rocket further. Maybe double.
I was probably wrong when I said a 300 mill pop country couldn't support a defence. It could, but only just.
Some of the stand out figures are. 37B a month on def maint. 19B a month on military services. 8B per month on MI's.
The game really should compute these numbers in with the total cost/profits. All we get at the minute is half the picture.
The cost of war hasn't fallen 1 bit.
| Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 03:57 am |
And with raiding c3's gone it's almost impossible for anyone to sustain these costs.
| Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 01:53 pm |
Nonsense, you have no clue.
Raiding C3's continues in force.
Many reach higher war levels, get cash along the way and several hundreds gold coins per war level.
some will now move to the new war level 13 and we will add more.
fighting c3 countries at war level 3 is what we call fake wars.
also, why fight C3 countries for assets.
attack a real country with 200T in assets, conquer it and you will be rich.
plenty of fighting to do.
The chicken wars are over. That is true.
| Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 04:34 pm |
Thanks Andy. Now If I where to say "you have no clue" I would be banned from the forum.
Lets not get distracted here. Raiding is only a small part of what I posted.
Are you saying those figures are wrong? 95B a month just on defence maintenance? Why would anyone want to pvp when they cant even maintain a defence in the long term?
Twice in 1 post you have insulted me. Others to no doubt. So those of us who raid are chickens?
| Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 02:54 am |
"Through the smoky haze, the forces of Perdue could be seen in their traditional formations on the field, their left and right flank wings fluttering in the wind, with breasts puffed out, to impress all who might see them before the battle.
At the base of the opposing hill, Lord Tyson and his 81st air-bird corps were, as per usual, at the fore of their battle formation. The legs of their infantry were frozen stiff in the cold misty freezer like conditions.
Then..seemingly out of nowhere, a bugle horn went out, piercing the mist with it's merciless fry.....and all knew the hero of Kentucky had arrived. Colonel Sanders, and the 11, would meet all challengers and leave no piece unturned."
The Chicken Wars Chronicles, Chap. XXVI
| Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 03:08 am |
| Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 03:17 am |
| Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 07:32 am |
Andy, Insulting paying dedicated players doesn't seem like a good marketing strategy. I took many a c3 at lower level for cash. I played within the rules. I did it so I could try and be competitive against large empires that had huge head starts militarily. I don't know why that makes me a "chicken". I don't see why that is bad. I even did it using more difficult measures instead of of a couple of carrier groups which I knew I could always do. You are forcing us into higher war levels far to quickly without the ability to make real cash and not offering alternative ways of making cash. I could trash my military and then play an easy economic game and then watch as somebody else decides to take my countries with a couple of carrier groups while I'm off to work. Of course, I could build 1 super country and with the game maniputlation, have it become number 1 in economic and war rankings while depriving myself of an empire.It is not cost effective to move up so quickly in these war levels. If moving up war levels is such a great thing, why do you need to force us to do it? You are squeezing players. The latest example of so many is the nation debt ploy.
Dickdastardly made statements supported by numbers and. if I may add, supported by my own experience in attempting to build a defensive oriented military. Don't insult players. Fix the game.
| Friday, November 14, 2014 - 01:01 am |
If you have complaints against the game master, please send them directly to their email address. I don't take too kindly for people out of blue, being mean to my adopted son!!!! Double D (DickDastardly) didn't even get his panties in as big a wad as you!!!
You Claudius have received a scowl from The Wicked Lady! If anyone is going to scold Andy, it will be ME, his MOTHER!!!!
| Friday, November 14, 2014 - 04:58 am |
| Friday, November 14, 2014 - 05:14 pm |
It is not our intension to offend anyone but when posting here, make sure you are not placing messages that are utterly untrue.
saying that "raiding is now gone", is just untrue. It is either having no clue or if you know it is not true, it is hateful.
People make a lot of money conquering C3 countries, and many gold coins, I see the numbers of gold coins awarded and it is much higher than before.
game money too, but fighting is a little more serious.
I also think that asking for the possibility to attack C3s at war level 3 only, is not very brave. You can make more money at higher levels and it is just asking for trivial "wars" that earn you money but make no sense at all.
| Friday, November 14, 2014 - 05:52 pm |
I could have worded my post better. Raiding has changed and it's no longer as easy as it once was, that's true. With the cash and gc gains it's plenty, more than enough to put anyone on a good footing.
I shouldn't really have added anything into this post about raiding. The main point was about maintaining the army.
Defending yourself comes at such a massive cost. I believe this is why people aren't playing the wargame
I'm trying to figure out how much pop I'll need just so I can afford to defend my key targets and an airforce. The basics of any defence. It's a lot. 100M plus
| Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 12:17 pm |
The cost of weapons and ammunition has declined a lot and it is declining more.
Also look at the mobile air defense units. These units defend an area rather than defending a target. At high quality they can add a lot to the defense.
Defense against the navy will be improved in the coming days. and auto response units will get a wider range of targets they can counter attack if the country is attacked.
We are open for comments about "weak" defense weapons that do not help and the same about other weapons and ammo.
The defense should always be cheaper than the offense but it should not be overdone.
There are many wars, maybe more than before. We intend to make war a good option to gain resources.
There will be a natural resources function added to Simcountry that will add reasons for players to gain strategic control of countries for reasons of availability of natural resources.
| Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 01:30 pm |
The costs have declined, but army maintenance has wiped out any gains the players would have made.
All that's really happened is everyone's military assets have declined in value but the cost of maintaining the army is the same.
A cynic would say that was a calculated move.
You can keep dropping the prices but until the maintenance costs come down it wont make a big difference.
I've seen you make the point that defence needs to be cheaper than attack. If I understand you right, your talking about when we're actually in war. Attacking units vs defence, there needs to be a balance of costs. I agree but this isn't my issue.
The issue is keeping a defence in place full time. 24/7, 365 days a year
98B a month on maintenance is unsustainable. The country I tested this with has 87M pop. A country that size needs to be able to cover the costs of defending every key target in the country.
Especially on FB. On the other worlds a secured main could help but FB there's no such luxury.
If you's want to encourage more pvp's then the monthly costs need to come way down. Cause it's a gaurentee that as soon as you dec on an active player your going to need a permanent defence in place.
I look forward to seeing how natural resources are implemented. It could be a great game addition.
Andy as far as weapons strength goes, Mobile con batts need a good look at. I've faced them lately and there totally useless. No damage done whilst losing all 20 batts in each response.
I think a weapon like this with it's auto capabilities needs to be far more effective. My suggestion is make them as hard to kill as the SB's. Plus up there damage. But only if there part of the mobile unit.
| Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 01:36 pm |
Another suggestion for the Mobile con batts. Have them work in tandem with the sb's. Both attacking the same target. SB's go after the defence first followed by a con missile strike on the targets.
| Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 01:41 pm |
I know you said defence weapons but thought I throw mobile cons in there. They really are useless.
| Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 06:48 pm |
They are useless seen them counter attack a fort in a war. They did no damages and all 20bats where lost.
| Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 11:22 pm |
Thanks for the comments on the conv batteries.
I will look into it.
No comment on the mobile air defense units?
We have experimented with the defense recently and reduced maintenance cost by deactivating part of the army. There are 6 game months between a war declaration and the start of the war. some weapons can be deactivated but that is limited.
The maintenance cost is largely ammunition. As the cost of ammunition is declining, the maintenance cost will decline too.
We do want to keep the numbers of ammo pieces used because this is what keeps the ammunition industry working.
For a long time, it was difficult to keep these corporations from closing. They are now doing well and very profitable.
The cost of maintenance will for sure not increase while the profitability of corporations and the country does increase.
as the price of ammo will decline even further, the maintenance cost will decline.
The cost of weapons declined too but it has no influence on the maintenance cost. It obviously reduces the purchasing price of the weapons.
| Monday, November 17, 2014 - 03:38 am |
I think the Mobile Air defence units work just fine. They add strength to the defence but they're not invincible. It's a good unit.
Another thing I forgot to mention was Nuclear defence batts and the soldiers/officers needed for these weapons. The days of having just 2 batts at your targets are long gone. SB's can wipe out 10/15 per attack. I think they should be brought more into line with the other land defnce units, as we need far more of them per target.
| Wednesday, November 19, 2014 - 01:45 am |
| Wednesday, November 19, 2014 - 01:46 am |
How you do playin
Your cards right.
| Thursday, November 20, 2014 - 08:35 am |
Something I have just recognised which I failed to take into account before. Was quality of ammo. When you take that into account the price of each ammo type triples. I buy at 300 as I don't want to diluted the quality I have.
My instinct was right when I said before "a 300M pop country couldn't afford to defend itself"
I have a 300M pop country at the moment. It has a 3M man army, 1% of it' population. Trying to keep up with the maintenance, my cash seems to be dropping by the T's.
I'm on the path to ruin.
| Thursday, November 20, 2014 - 08:35 am |
| Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 04:35 am |
Hi, are school levels are inadequate.
| Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 05:13 am |
i see where i was misalocated on the school.
i will be happy with the conv batteries and remain grounded.
| Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 10:27 am |
Best really is to build corporations that make military services ect and contract them to your own country, then at least your getting what your military needs, but you would be reclaiming back a lot of your money given to the corp through tax and profit share