Simcountry is a multiplayer Internet game in which you are the president, commander in chief, and industrial leader. You have to make the tough decisions about cutting or raising taxes, how to allocate the federal budget, what kind of infrastructure you want, etc..
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Pissing Contest

Topics: Little Upsilon: Pissing Contest

Orbiter

Tuesday, September 8, 2015 - 06:19 am Click here to edit this post
now when i say that, its really my hope to create a discussion about many factors, that correlate to a good country, primarily econ. of course ego will play a factor, but lets be good sportsman, and salute a fellow that has something good going on. rather than argue until we win. if we can recognize excellence, when we see it, we can become better.

when comparing countries, it is fair to subtract military cost, and drafted army.

also, a player should remove the secrecy parameters to allow others to view them. i mean, ante up

the GM make changes, as is right, when changes are made, or the econ of the planet become turbulent, these things must also be considered. the ability to adjust, compensate, and foresight, are key sim country skills and are also a fair consideration. especially when explained.

all factors can be considered, income per corporate worker, income per total work force, income to cost, any thing a player is proud off, lets talk about. but keep in mind, their are many ways to look at a country. lets take a look

also, lets limit this, for simplicity, to main countries, how ever, empire strats are fair to consider

Josias Jorvick
aka Orbiter

Orbiter

Tuesday, September 8, 2015 - 06:32 am Click here to edit this post
i'll start,

13 Orbiter Level 6 Dream Land 8811 WR 34 FR 1


so #1 Financial rank, i'd bet many would be interested in this, and it will become clear with discussion, but confusing with lecture. It is essentially income to cost. that means i have the lowest cost to income ratio. not necessarily the most profit, or most robust econ, how ever...

Jan 8 3575 LU
Total Income 478,232.67M SC$
Total Cost 175,018.37M SC$
Profit / Shortage 303,214.30M SC$

Financial Index 237.50

Madoff

Tuesday, September 8, 2015 - 08:27 am Click here to edit this post
I congratulate Orbiter for bringing up this issue, and for ranking #1 in the financial index. As an econ player, I always considered it my favorite index.

(Income/Cost)*100=Financial Index. Income and cost represent averages over a period of time.

The financial index has simplicity and elegance. It's public and very accessible. Most importantly, it's a useful operational guide, considering that most players are beginners and econ players.

My favorite strategy for getting a high financial index was to employ as many engineers as possible. They pay so much income tax that most of my country income would come from citizen tax. That preponderance of citizen tax revenue also provided a great hedge against recessions.

Orbiter mentioned elsewhere that being able to weather a stormy economy is an important skill. True, and the strategy of high citizen tax achieves that.

However, I've always said that the only index that matters is the Personal Fun Index. This game allows players plenty of room for exploration and invention. No one strategy has a monopoly on fun. Each player should dance happily to his or her own tune.

Aries

Tuesday, September 8, 2015 - 09:29 am Click here to edit this post
Had to make some military considerations recently. My main would be war rank 1 except that my 9 slaves occupy the top 9 spots. Taking into account the cost of both our militaries (70 billion vs. 23.5 billion), you have about $20 billion more profit (237.5 billion vs. 303 billion) at the moment with 10 million more corporate employees.

I have added 3 million corporate employees in the last 18 months and as those corps upgrade, and some industry sectors recover, it should be interesting to revisit. I did find out that the game stops counting your country asset total when you reach $2500 Trillion though, so there is that.

Orbiter

Tuesday, September 8, 2015 - 09:52 am Click here to edit this post
Madoff

The PFI is certainly the best factor, and can be only measured by each player...

when you say high income tax, my experience, is that high income tax from workers, also measures into high costs, in terms of "weathering the storm" lower costs prevail when corporate income falters...


Aries...

you are an excellent player, the recent game changes have favored you, over me. so this considered, i'm fully aware that i must make drastic changes to my country, to maintain my income advantage? our income difference fluctuates, but most the time i make up the difference in military cost, and about 7-8% probably over all

my thought on for both, is low salaries, i run 160, just for levels, but if i could, i'd run 100, it has always seemed the most efficient

Aries

Tuesday, September 8, 2015 - 06:36 pm Click here to edit this post
You have had an advantage the last 3-4 weeks since the market got shaky in a number of sectors at once. Namely, services, HTS, electronic components, software, and chemicals. At least some will recover very soon.

Game changes? You mean with HLWs? That loosened bottleneck has helped me grow Garrote and Candinnalm. I now think younger demographics, combined with high pop, has something to do with it. I still find myself converting a few teachers/nurses but it is far easier now. Garrotte, in particular, will soon grow to be a new economic powerhouse. It has 54 new corps in the process of upgrading.

Talking about weathering, I found an excellent time to invest all this investment fund cash brought on by my worker growth. Must have put down about $12 trillion in struggling public corps. That should pay off on the near future.

Orbiter

Tuesday, September 8, 2015 - 08:05 pm Click here to edit this post
amoung other steps to avoid the bottle neck, i would build different corps, you could build a corp that makes 1.5B a GM, while i would build 2 corps that would make make 0.9B, i built allot of different stuff, and some of the higher profit corps, but allot of low or mid range stuff, and it allowed me to employ a larger worker force, while you where being held back from HLWs.

that has changed now, and i'm going to have to rework my corp build strat, some corps like plastics, (which use half the number of HLW that a computer corp will,) are doing so well i'll probably keep them, but i'm gonna have to switch out most of my agg and food corps for a heavier tech and industry based econ

i have 20 cattle feed corps, because they use 8K HLWs, i could build 3-4 of them compaired to a tech corp, but they also make allot less profit. i'll need to switch out things like that to keep up

our total corp profit has been in the same-ish ball park, with Candinnalm making more, and clearly more per corp, prior to the update, Dream Land had about 108%-ish total corps compaired to Candinnalm, and a little less total corp profit.

like i said, the ability to adjust to game challenges and changes is an important skill.

i'm also going to need to increase my education index, i'm doubting that the 120 i've been running is going to be robust enough to handle the load

Orbiter

Saturday, September 12, 2015 - 06:51 am Click here to edit this post
ok aries, you've had many chances to avoid this, now its time for an apology, you took advantage of my country's situation, to win arguments, and my shock of your twist to my words,


Quote:

Your posts that attempted to link the entirety of government costs to salaries on the thread analyzing Sim-citizen wage data were simply absurd. -aries




its time for you to retract your statements, as you can no longer win an argument, based on country performance, nor my surprise at such an awefull twist to what i said.

Aries

Saturday, September 12, 2015 - 03:24 pm Click here to edit this post
You appear to be wrong on both counts. First, that statement had nothing to do with country performance. Trying to state as factual that all that is needed to make a point on salaries, particularly corporate salaries, is to post the total of government costs could not be more false.

Second, I can win many arguments on country performance. My main performs very favorably with yours. In addition, while you try to match your best efforts with my main, my empire has an embarrassing advantage in wealth generation over any other empire, anywhere. I'll share a new stat that any player can attempt to match. In 5 weeks, I have added $700 Trillion in cash (not counting my military adds) to my assets. All econ. No wars. Any takers?

Orbiter

Saturday, September 12, 2015 - 06:36 pm Click here to edit this post
to say that lowering salaries, lowers cost, is a stand alone statement, its like saying if i drop a rock in the water, it sinks to the bottom. its a true statement, that does not need to be accompanied by mentioning the splash, the ripples, or the scared fish, in order for it to be true. those other things a 2 year old could observe

to say, lowering salaries, lowers cost, does not require a complete discourse of every cost, for the statement to be true, and it is dishonest, to assert the simple statement as false, because it does not address every factor.

you certainly have a great empire, but when we are discussing econ, and i say lowering salaries, reduces cost, more than income, this is evident with the fact that my country now makes 10-15% more per Game month. this last month i made 29% more, and it still isn't at full speed, my HI is now where it should be, but my country and corporate welfare are still recovering.

but you are right, your empire is way better than mine, hands down, if you want that to be the comparison, then i have no game. i'm unable to buy enough pop to match you, and i refuse to use your pop exploit. i've thought about it a few times, even started setting up to do it, but i just couldn't bring myself to do it, i don't need to break a game feature to have a great empire, and have fun, i'm happy with what i got.

Aries

Saturday, September 12, 2015 - 07:18 pm Click here to edit this post
As general as you were, you were not that general. Does lowering salaries lower costs? Sure, but which costs? You made the argument that government costs were a "significant" reason for your salary policy. If I lower my CEO salaries does it affect my country government costs? You can spend time arguing costs are lowered but you did not make the case how lowering salaries has a substantive, or even significant, affect on government costs. The fact is that corporate salaries, which include 78% of your workforce, do not even show up on that side of a country ledger, at all.

As far as pop, I am not aware of any "exploiting" going on. Sure, I buy pop. Yes, I pay attention to country demographics and use that info to plan where I want to buy pop and where I wish to transfer pop too and away from. No game features have been "broken" in this process.

Orbiter

Saturday, September 12, 2015 - 07:20 pm Click here to edit this post
you can compare our social security costs

Candinnalm
Social Security Payments 32,445.24M SC$
Payment %73
Number of retired People 18,201,639
Number of disabled People 6,835,784
Number of unemployed People 3,358,993
Total on SSI 28,396,416


Dream Land
Social Security Payments 28,907.02M SC$
Payment %91
Number of retired People 20,197,238
Number of disabled People 9,769,880
Number of unemployed People 3,954,633
Total on SSI 33,921,751

so, my cost is 89% of yours, but i pay 25% higher (18 points,) and have 20% more people on SSI. This is because of my lower wages.

Dream Land, General Cost of Government 57,376.14M SC$
Candinnalm, General Cost of Government 58,996.47M SC$

our country governement costs are similar, however...

Dream Land, Consumption Quality Index 323.33
Candinnalm, Consumption Quality Index 204.56

so my lower salaries, largely compensates for my higher consumption quality, in the case of government costs.

This becomes more evident with we look closely at the transportation index.

Candinnalm, Transportation Index 131.38
Transportation System 13,341.93M SC$
Dream Land, Transportation Index 123.08
Transportation System 7,149.73M SC$

while you have a 7% higher index, you have an 87% higer cost? the explaination is in the consumption.

Candinnalm
Road Maintenance 4,369.24M SC$ 200Q
Traintracks maintenance 2,817.25M SC$ 199Q
Water maintenance 4,746.57M SC$ 201Q

DreamLand
Road Maintenance 2,493.89M SC$ 122Q
Traintracks maintenance 1,612.30M SC$ 122Q
Water maintenance 2,697.70M SC$ 122Q

So while my salaries reduce costs, my 324 overall consumption Quality raises government costs, while my 60% quality of transportation maintenance greatly reduces my cost.

Its called Country ASQ, a modified version of the old school Corporate ASQ. I buy most things at max quality, increasing some costs, which are already low from my salaries, while i buy key supplies low to surgically reduce specific costs.

this also works with Health care related supplies. Used to work with military supplies, but i'm not sure about that any more. the GM have been changing things to be weighted more on the total cost, rather than volume, but it still works.

Orbiter

Saturday, September 12, 2015 - 07:26 pm Click here to edit this post
and thats the point of the rock, aries, in a casual discussion, its not neccessary to go into such detail, to make such a statement, if we are "discussing," and i make a statement that you want expanded, you can do so, or ask for such, rather than take the approach the statement is untrue with out these other factors considered.

its a no brainer that lower salaries lower cost, its business 101, and is a stand alone statement. that should have been expanded on, rather than attacked

Aries

Saturday, September 12, 2015 - 08:31 pm Click here to edit this post
Buying things like road maintenance at lower quality does nothing but dress up your profit and loss page. You don't actually save money but you can confuse players who are not familiar with how the finance page works.

Oh, and has nothing to do with salaries.

Aries

Saturday, September 12, 2015 - 08:40 pm Click here to edit this post
So far you explained how our social security and government costs are nearly identical while you dress up your transportation costs by buying low quality maintenance. Was this supposed to make a point about how salaries were a "significant" reason for a difference in government costs? If there is a no-brainer here, I am not finding it and I am cheating (by using my brain).

Orbiter

Saturday, September 12, 2015 - 11:51 pm Click here to edit this post
for one, social security is entirely based on salaries, while 90-95% of the total trans cost is material.

we've established that lower salaries, means lower cost, so what makes our government cost virtually the same? by looking closely at different indexes that have different cost bases, we can see, that my higher consumption quality, adds cost, that my lower salaries offset.

this plays true with country welfare. the country consumption index, contributes to the country welfare. so by lowering corporate salaries, and buying high quality country supplies, you can offset a chunk of the reduced production, do to lower wages. much of this is already offset at a country level, lowering the cost of salaries at the corporate level, reduces costs, while still maintaining a high amount of production.

Candin Chemicals
Profit Last Month 1,215.05M SC$
Production Last Month 2,368,976.86
Products Sold 3,789.61M SC$
Total Corporate Cost 2,569.47M SC$
Welfare Index 128.05
Corporate Salaries 400

Candin Chemicals 2
Profit Last Month 1,247.71M SC$
Production Last Month 2,368,976.86
Products Sold 3,825.33M SC$
Total Corporate Cost 2,573.46M SC$
Welfare Index 128.05
Corporate Salaries 400

Dream Land
Agusta Chemicals
Profit Last Month 1,415.55M SC$
Production Last Month 2,149,964.93
Products Sold 3,465.94M SC$
Total Corporate Cost 2,045.17M SC$
Welfare Index 116.21
Corporate Salaries 160

Verdan Chemicals
Profit Last Month 1,439.72M SC$
Production Last Month 2,149,964.93
Products Sold 3,492.49M SC$
Total Corporate Cost 2,053.60M SC$
Welfare Index 116.21
Corporate Salaries 160

now a couple of "qualifying statements," need to be made. first, our country welfare are very similar, 130 aries, to 131 me. how ever, my country country welfare just reached this level, and is still climbing, and my corporate welfare is still climbing, neither one have maxed out, so my corps will be more productive, with the same cost, but the comparison atm, works.

Both of aries corps in the example, have 10-ish % more production, and sales, amounting to 0.3-0.35B more sales, but my total costs, of 0.5B-ish lower, more than make up the difference.

so my salaries, of 40% his, give me 10% less production, but 20% total lower costs, gives me about 15% higher profit...

over all, my lower salaries, compensate for high cost supplies, at a country level, and reduce a large portion of the costs at a corporate level, while the higher quality country supplies, counters much of the sting of lower wages.

i don't think that is necessary to compare 370-380 corps individually. the ones i picked where all country controlled public corps.

Aries

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 02:09 am Click here to edit this post
Here is the comment you made, to restate.

"here is the significant reason of the difference of wages.

Total Country cost
Candinnalm (country #1)
Total Income and Cost 525,610.16M SC$ Total Income 228,086.08M SC$ Total cost
Profit / Shortage 297,524.08M SC$

Dream Land (country #2)
Total Income and Cost 465,117.76M SC$ Total Income 166,187.66M SC$ Total cost
Profit / Shortage 298,930.10M SC$

so you can see, that the higher salaries, raise the running costs. but does not necessarily increase income"

Aries

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 02:14 am Click here to edit this post
So far, you mentioned the following to try to explain this.

1. Our social security costs are within $4 Billion of each other.

2. "our country government costs are similar"

3. "90-95% of the total trans cost is material"

4. Look at this corporation data.


I am pleased we are finally looking at corporation data. I am interested how that data has anything to do with the COSTS SIDE of the finance page "Profit & Loss" ledger. I am starting to believe you don't actually know how the finance page works.

Until then, yes, I still stand by my quote. You posted it above.

Your posts that attempted to link the entirety of government costs to salaries on the thread analyzing Sim-citizen wage data were simply absurd. -aries

I take full credit for that. It is true.

Orbiter

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 04:36 am Click here to edit this post
well, you know, aries... considering that my country is totally out preforming yours, on the financial page and at the corporation level...


i'd have to say that i'm not the absurd one that doesn't get it.

Aries

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 05:02 am Click here to edit this post
On the corporate data itself, I looked at Candin Chemicals and Agusta Chemicals. I am a game month later but lets look at YTD data.


Candin Chemicals

Products Sold 19,098.78M
Salaries Paid 3,366.86M
Raw Materials Used 6,945.46M
Fixed Property Costs 1,832.79M
Maintenance Products Used 732.66M
Interest on Loans 0.00M
Country Resources used 0.00M
Total Income 19,098.78M
Total Cost 12,877.77M
Profit 6,221.01M

Agusta Chemicals

Products Sold 17,461.97M
Salaries Paid 1,352.02M
Raw Materials Used 5,894.65M
Fixed Property Costs 1,835.93M
Maintenance Products Used 1,159.46M
Interest on Loans 0.00M
Country Resources used 0.00M
Total Income 17,461.97M
Total Cost 10,242.06M
Profit 7,219.91M


Some other data i would consider

Candinnalm

Total Income of all Workers this month 470880.16M SC$
Taxes paid by Citizens 115,133.15M SC$
Taxes as a % of wages 24.5%
Health Contributions 31,367.73M SC$
Health Contributions as a % of wages 6.7%
Education Contributions 13,784.30M SC$
Education Contributions as a % of wages 2.9%
(IF) New Contributions by the Population 11,443M SC$
(IF) New Contributions by the Population as a % of wages 2.4%

Dream Land

Total Income of all Workers this month 311599.10M SC$
Taxes paid by Citizens 62,895.15M SC$
Taxes as a % of wages 20.2%
Health Contributions 20,047.28M SC$
Health Contributions as a % of wages 6.4%
Education Contributions 8,126.41M SC$
Education Contributions as a % of wages 2.6%
(IF) New Contributions by the Population 4,464M SC$
(IF) New Contributions by the Population as a % of wages 1.4%

Back to the corps. It appears I have a choice of either:

1. 999M SC$ more profit.

or

2. 2015M SC$ more wages. In my country, this seems to average about an extra 494M SC$ in country income tax, 135M SC$ in health contributions, 58M SC$ in education contributions, and 48M SC$ in new investment fund contributions.

A lot closer than looking at just profit would tell. There are a few other differences such as my corp has a smaller workforce and your corp saved just over 1000M SC$ on material costs over the same period.

Aries

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 05:23 am Click here to edit this post
As an empire, I am the U.S. and you are Japan. You are trying to edge me on stats by comparing Tokyo to New York City. If you succeed, well, you are still Japan.

Orbiter

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 07:43 am Click here to edit this post
999M compaired to 36.5% more contributions of 2015M income... equals 735M income....

hmmm, so you think that paying more to have an extra income of 735m is better than paying less to have an extra 999M

who is absurd?

Orbiter

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 08:09 am Click here to edit this post
and i was wondering if you'd go to the health and education

the difference in cost to pop contributions, of your HI, is 25.2, while mine is 18.3, thats a 37% difference in bottom line cost.

you have 2882 hospitals, to my 2800 even

you have 3% more hospitals, but a 37% higher bottom line cost.

do you think that i might be on to something? isn't their a theme here? my corps make higher profit, than your income tax can compensate for, while my lower salaries largely keep country costs low

Candinnalm
Total Income and Cost
544,414.83M SC$ Total Income
259,470.61M SC$ Total cost
61,741.65M SC$ Total cost of defence
modified cost, minus defence, 197.8B

Dream Land
Total Income and Cost
550,213.26M SC$ Total Income
177,890.19M SC$ Total cost
26,562.76M SC$ Total cost of defence
modified cost, minus defence, 151.3B

by my method, i have 6B more total income, but 46B less cost, for a total +52B more profit

Same stat, YTD

Candinnalm
Total Income 3,234,385.90M SC$
Total Cost 1,570,070.68M SC$
Total Defense Cost 382,605.07M SC$
Modified Cost 1,187.4B
YTD modified Profit 2,046.9B
divided by 7 months, 292.4B

Dream Land
Total Income 3,267,082.39M SC$
Total Cost 1,078,092.66M SC$
Total Defense Cost 163,053.94M SC$
Modified Cost 915B
YTD modified Profit 2,352B
divided by 7 months, 336B

thats 43.6B more profit per game month, or 15% higher profit

Orbiter

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 09:08 am Click here to edit this post
i hit the HI first, because its more straight forward than the EI.

for EI, you have 25%-ish higher index, but thats not really a fair way to look at it. at a glance, you have about 45-50% more schools

for both of us, we each have the 3 sub-indexes lined up, with one point of each other, 154-155 for you, and 126-127 for me.

for simplicity purposes, i'll use universities. 155 to my 127.

Candinnalm has 614 Universities, to Dream Land's 446, or 37% more

Candinnalm
Education Contributions and Cost
13,759.65M SC$ Spending on education
36,454.08M SC$ Cost of education
22.7B difference in contributions to cost

Dream Land
Education Contributions and Cost
8,143.69M SC$ Spending on education
20,382.95M SC$ Cost of education
12.3B difference in contributions to cost

so Candinnalm has 37% more Universities, but an 84% higher bottom line cost...

your certainly welcome to look into that further, because i'm not sure just comparing universities is fair. i just picked an easy way

but even with a higher amount, its going to be difficult to compensate for 84% higher bottom line cost.

Aries

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 04:29 pm Click here to edit this post
Your first post does not take into consideration that there was a difference of over $1B in material costs. Your comment remains absurd.

On hospitals. You are dressing up this cost like you are transportation. Again, there is no actual savings here. I am sorry if I am ruining your chance to fool people who are not actually familiar with how the finance page works.

Candinnalm

Medical Equipment 11,850.27M SC$ 201
Medical Materials 3,039.09M SC$ 195
Pharmaceutical Products 5,564.50M SC$ 200

Dream Land

Medical Equipment 7,105.86M SC$ 123
Medical Materials 1,880.91M SC$ 123
Pharmaceutical Products 3,342.00M SC$ 122

Salaries have nothing to do with this^^^


Yay, we are on to education. Hitting all these government costs actually looking for salary savings. So, lets look at actual employment.

Candinnalm

Employed Teachers 6,553,290
Teacher Salary 24,320
Teacher Monthly Salary 2,027
University Teachers 1,242,300
University Teachers Salary 33,280
U Teacher Monthly Salary 2,773

Dream Land

Employed Teachers 4,362,600
Teacher Salary 12,160
Teacher Monthly Salary 1,013
University Teachers 931,220
University Teachers Salary 16,640
U Teacher Monthly Salary 1,387


So, how much could I save with your salaries?

6,553,290 teachers * Monthly Salary Difference (2,027-1,013)= $6.65 Billion

1,242,300 u teachers * Monthly Salary Difference (2,773 - 1,387)= $1.72 Billion

Teacher Savings 6.65 + U Teacher Savings = $8.37 Billion

Again, does this mean I would net $8.37 Billion if I lowered salaries? Of course not. Salaries buy and pay for things. Your original comment remains absurd because we have found more dressing up on government material costs on your part than we have salary savings.

Profit and Loss on the finance page is simply a tool. It is not a perfect one. It does not actually measure a change of cash situation on a monthly basis. All this actually occurs on the Cash YTD page.

This exercise has shown just how substantial material costs figure into the costs side of government costs. I actually do, much, better than Profit & Loss would indicate. In particular, Profit & Loss calculates the use of products on a monthly basis based on their CURRENT market price.

Here is an example:

Def Weapons Maintenance 5,447.92M SC$ 304

This is found under "Spending" on the finance page and a cost reflected on Profit & Loss. It is calculated by multiplying the qua 3.04 * current market price 20,629 * units expended 86,971 = $5.45 Billion.

Did I spend $5.45 Billion on Def Weapons Maintenance this month? Of course not. I lost 86,971 units of Def Weapons Maintenance. Did I spend $5.45 Billion on those when I purchased them? Nope. I shipped that particular item from other worlds, where I purchased them at half the cost. This happens again and again for products I know I am going to use, whether they are measured on Profit & Loss or not. When I buy stuff "on sale" on LU, or elsewhere, I beat the Profit & Loss.

You manipulate Profit & Loss by purchasing the products measured by it at a lower quality. These products don't actually find purpose in the tool, they are simply measured. I am not sure if your goal is to fool others or yourself by doing this but, again, you don't actually save money this way.

You can dress up Profit & Loss and, if that makes you happy, go ahead. I just ask you stay off my thread with that rubbish where I am trying to teach how things work. Find your own thread where you might impress people with your Profit & Loss manipulation.

Orbiter

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 04:59 pm Click here to edit this post
your lists of costs for health supplies, amounts to 55-60% of the total cost, leaving allot of room for the effect of salaries.

but have it your way, this is what i meant above about "arguing tell you win," i've made many, clear and valid points, that you casually dismiss, because it does not suit you. so, i'll let you carry on, and i'll continue to dominate in profit

how ever, later, when i have more time, i'll address the corp material question.


Quote:

Your first post does not take into consideration that there was a difference of over $1B in material costs. Your comment remains absurd. -Aries




but before i do, i'd like to hear your explanation, why is their such a difference? and how does 1B difference in raw material, have more weight than 2B difference in wages?

its seem to me, the stronger, larger, cost cut, would be the most likely reason for better profit? and it is, but lets see if you get this right! so far your batting zero.

Aries

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 05:19 pm Click here to edit this post
Casually dismiss? I have shined the spotlight through your smoke and mirrors show. Either go learn how the finance page works or find someone else to fool with your finance page shenanigans. Players can choose to learn from the player who actually adds cash and assets at a clip exceeding $20 Trillion/day or a player who has learned just enough to dress up their Profit & Loss page.

Orbiter

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 06:20 pm Click here to edit this post
tools, as you'd say, with the gauges, calibers, and measurements we have, everything points to me paying less for more, but you continue with what your doing, by all means.

and how about an explanation for the raw material costs, you brought it up twice now, i can talk about it, and explain it, your smart enough to get it, but i think that your actually going to miss.

but you get first crack, with your imaginary, and invisible measuring device.

Aries

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 07:44 pm Click here to edit this post
I know how you do the raw materials costs. I will explain it when you tell me why your conclusions on data have been as blatantly wrong as your statement linking the entirety of government costs to salaries. Do I even need to recap how wrong your conclusions have been?

Your rock in the water comment should have considered which pond you were throwing the stone into.

You said transportation costs were an example of a salary difference:

"so my lower salaries, largely compensates for my higher consumption quality, in the case of government costs.

This becomes more evident with we look closely at the transportation index."

Until you dialed it back (who does draw a salary for transportation anyway...):

"90-95% of the total trans cost is material."

You said high quality consumption adds to government costs but missed an opportunity to reiterate you buy materials reflected in Profit & Loss at a lower quality:

"my 324 overall consumption Quality raises government costs"

Paying more for things like electric power can create additional cost but has no affect on the Profit & Loss page that you continually site.

You gave hospitals as an example of savings before admitting that material costs account for most of the difference.

You would have more credibility if you were complete and honest in your conclusions on data before one needs to post to point out your inaccuracies and misleading comments. How do you do raw materials for corps? It is more dress-up. You sure you want me to point this out?

Aries

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 07:50 pm Click here to edit this post
Oh, you cited Business 101 earlier. I took that course. I also took more advanced business courses, Business Law, several economics courses, a marketing course, and an accounting class. I am more of a tech guy but I enjoy the business stuff. I can hold my own but if you want to show me something that is cool. I am still waiting to see something neat and shiny that retains its glow after you tell me about it.

Orbiter

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 08:22 pm Click here to edit this post
aries, this argument was over before it began

i of course wanted to make a point, i did that, but i was also aware, before i started this, you would not agree with a thing i said. this has been a constant event for over 6 months.

my arguments are valid, based on legitimate sim-stats, that all players use to measure the success of their countries. and i have demonstrated the relation of salaries, and high and low quality country supplies effect on country production, costs, and profit.

how ever, the discussion is now concluded, i will not be dragged into an argument, that will only continue until it is undignified. but you are welcome to post anything you want.

so, are we gonna discuss my raw material costs? or not? it was your point, not mine, but i'd be happy to discuss it. ironically, its something you do better than me, when i looked at it closer, i realized i shouldn't be doing it, or doing it another way

Aries

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 08:42 pm Click here to edit this post
I believe there is a large segment of players who simply delve deep enough into the game to have a pretty pet country. They upload a pretty president pic, they make their map nice, and spend plenty of time coming up with cute names for cities and towns.

Players who stop at the Profit & Loss page and don't truly understand it. Players who are content with making that page nice. They are one step past the first group. If you will be their champion, so be it.

Me? I often don't bother to change my presidents picture. I have countries that still display the same name and pic they had when another player owned them, before I conquered it. I don't draw pretty maps, I go for function. I make decisions on government policy based on what nets the most assets, not what makes some select stats nice.

For those who truly would be interested in accumulating assets. For those who want to actually afford to deploy and maintain massive military forces one day. I will look to teach those guys. I will call out this select stat/dress-up silliness that pops up when I attempt to do so. My results are clear. No player, on any world, accumulates assets in the ballpark I do with econ.

Players, choose your path..

Orbiter

Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 08:49 pm Click here to edit this post
and about the corp raw materials? that you brought up?

Orbiter

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 06:12 am Click here to edit this post
also, aries, are you actually throwing space trade up for econ discussion?

space station trade would not exist, except for me

i am Josias Jorvick, the Orbiter, master of space

something you know full well.

Aries

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 06:25 am Click here to edit this post
I will admit, we both do well there. Indeed, my income there has been useful for my investments in pop on LU. I think there is a bit more potential if the word gets out a bit. I continually point out to new players the benefits of looking to space and direct trade to get value of their coins rather than retrieving a paltry $30 billion each.

Orbiter

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 06:32 am Click here to edit this post
true to the thread theme....

i once had a player declare war on me, with the #1 and 2 war countries here on LU, against my 2 80M cash cows, that had 20 I-wings, and 10 H-wngs each.

but in the 48 hour waiting period, i moved so much hardware from WG, that it became a 1-2 versus 3-4 war, i was ready to duke it out for several days, as i felt the future of LU was at stake. that the other guy, who originally saw an econ prize, sued for peace. i excepted, because it meant i won with out a shot


also, you where their in chat, as it gave me the momentum to defeat my greatest rival, and tell Wendy to not let the door hit her, where the good lord split her...

it was epic, but in the past.

lets talk about the future of space trade, what do you have to say?

Aries

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 06:48 am Click here to edit this post
Space trade is going to be driven by demand. The expensive nature of docks remains a limitation for buyers and sellers. I'd like to see a way where either the game or players can remove this cost for buyers.

If a seller could chose to, say, label a dock they own a "buyers dock", that would help. Perhaps, if they have a "buyers dock" available, anyone who buys their goods and lacks their own space could use this area (if totally empty). Only one buyer could use the dock at a time. To encourage the buyer to move their goods, a lease would kick in after 24 hours should they not empty the dock, making it available for the next buyer.

Orbiter

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 06:55 am Click here to edit this post
interesting, not sure i'm for or against that, from an outside view, ok, but who buys the docks and offers them? you know the GM wont, if they would, then why wouldn't they just lower the price?

seriously, until it becomes more popular, docks, and rental should be 1/5 what they are now. in a couple of years, when the game popularity improves, return them to the current prices... but jeese the cost now is just to much

i say that, while i own over 40, that i've made from space trade. i know the potential is their, the cost is holding us back.

Aries

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 06:58 am Click here to edit this post
You obviously have the ability and I would purchase a few docks just to use in that way. It offers enough of an incentive as a seller that it just may be worth it. At the same time, it eases new buyers into space trade that benefits this game feature overall for everyone.

Orbiter

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 07:03 am Click here to edit this post
and when i say the cost is to much, GAME MASTERS, i've proven it

Orbiter

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 07:17 am Click here to edit this post
but aries, i'd need to undue something we agreed on, to expand, and we agreed on that, on my side, because i don't want the daily chore... i can wait for February

where you brag about your income, my income is sufficient to undercut your space prices, for over a year, before i run out. and by then, i'd probably be able to find another partner, that i can pass a few econ tricks to, (like i'd use them up in this thread,) this is not a challenge, rather, a call.

i posted on the trade thread, that basically i needed help keeping up with space trade. and you bought in. i was happy, we where once in the same fed, you where a newb in an elite fed that rallied around me in a time of trouble. i saw you start in cervus, i was joyed

then when i let my sales go, i noticed you raising prices. it irritated me. i'd sacrificed allot to generate business, i noticed that once my prices reached a certain level, my customer numbers multiplied. how ever, i noticed you raising prices, to the max you'd think players would pay

in reality, 80% cost, should be enough, but the game just isn't ready for that. so i under cut you. and we continued a price war... a newb that was interested in renting my dock, to sell PB, so he could buy SB, found the price war... well, i haven't heard from him since.

essentially, their is allot of potential, but being to aggressive, will ruin that, as much as the GM's high buy in cost.

Aries

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 08:05 am Click here to edit this post
That post hit a little of everywhere. Guess I will respond to a few.

1. We both could renew a price war. We both could survive one. Neither of us could "win" a price war.

2. Did you not make this thread to brag? You started by highlighting your finance rank and Profit & Loss which I let go until you reiterated a statement you made on my teaching thread that has proved assuredly false.

3. You said:

"i noticed that once my prices reached a certain level, my customer numbers multiplied."

So yes, we have both experimented with prices. Why would my experimentation make you irritated?

Orbiter

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 08:11 pm Click here to edit this post
the first 2 are stand alone statements, that don't need to be qualified, or addressed,

but, i put allot into making space work, dropping prices until i had enough customers to pass on some of the business. i was watching you take advantage of a handful of players, while ruining the whole thing. so basically, i handed something over to you, that you where going to just ruin, ya, i was irritated.

Aries

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 08:27 pm Click here to edit this post
I can assure you, no puppies were harmed.

But seriously, if we are both in space and selling something, how could I take advantage of anyone? The core issue remains the same though. Particularly, the lack of buyers exacerbated by the cost of entry. More buyers would lead to more sellers and eventually a more stable market environment than one with a shortage of both buyers and sellers.

Orbiter

Monday, September 14, 2015 - 08:54 pm Click here to edit this post
which is my point, raising prices, discourages buyers

since space was created, players have complained about docking costs, and back then, you could spend the night raiding C3s, convert the cash to GC and get a dock or 2. now, thats impossible, but the GM consider the potential income, worth the buy in cost.

this is partially true, my 40+ docks, amount to more than 8000GC in sales, all from space. this does not count what i've spent on professionals, registration, and pop.

but the bottom line fact, is that their isn't enough volumn, to justify the buy in for more than a couple of players.

Aries

Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 06:20 am Click here to edit this post
Working on something constructive. Just tried to put together what I know about government costs. This is my worksheet of data. Worked quick to gather everything in the same game month. Have anything to add to this?

Total Government Costs 254,662.91M SC$ (From P&L)

Social Security Costs 36,508.75M SC$ (From P&L)

Social Security Quality Index 88.11
Current Social Security Percentage of Low Level Worker Salary 73 %
Yearly Social Security Payments 13,738 SC$
Number of retired People 18,254,112
Number of disabled People 6,899,871
Number of unemployed People 6,356,626

General Cost of Government 60,889.49M SC$ (From P&L)

Health Costs 59,017.79M SC$ (From P&L)

Known Material Costs $20.85 Billion
Salary Costs $16.92 Billion
Unfound Costs $21.23 Billion

Medical Equipment 12,419.65M SC$ 201 (From Spending)
8,360,700 units (From Trade)
Medical Materials 2,566.77M SC$ 195 (From Spending)
769,735 units (From Trade)
Pharmaceutical Products 5,858.15M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
251,913 units (From Trade)

Nurses 4,993,356 at 16,640 1,387/month $6.93 Billion
Doctors 1,620,246 at 43,200 3,600/month $5.83 Billion
Senior Doctors 928,326 at 53,760 4,480/month $4.16 Billion

Education Costs 36,968.88M SC$ (From P&L)

Known Material Costs $14.05 Billion
Salary Costs $16.86 Billion
Unfound Costs $6.06 Billion

Teachers 6,613,062 at 24,320 2,027/month $13.4 Billion
University Teachers 1,248,450 at 33,280 2,773/month $3.46 Billion

(This is using data from Eduction Costs in docs)
Schools 70,508
Services (per year) 2250 units per year 187.5/month 13.2 million units
Books etc. 420 units per year 35/month 2.47 million units
Other products 210 units per year 17.5/month 1.2 million units

High Schools 46,358
Services (per year) 2310 units per year 192.5/month 8.9 million units
Books etc. 420 units per year 35/month 1.6 million units
Other products 210 units per year 17.5/month 811k units

Universities 614
Services (per year) 42000 units per year 3500/month 2.1 million units
High-tech services 7800 units per year 650/month 399k units
Books etc. 21000 units per year 1750/month 1.1 million units
Other products 7200 units per year 600/month 368k units

Total monthly use (All Schools)

Services 24.3 million units 193 qua 191 market price $9 Billion
HTS 399k units 194 qua 344 market price $266 Million
Books etc. 5.17 million units 200 qua 462 market price $4.78 Billion
other 2.38 million units $6 Billion?

Transportation Costs 11,698.42M SC$ (From P&L)

Material Costs $10.24 Billion
Unfound Costs $1.46 Billion

Road Maintenance 4,100.70M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
384,700 units (From Trade)
Traintracks maintenance 2,476.06M SC$ 199 (From Spending)
153,900 units (From Trade)
Water maintenance 3,659.50M SC$ 192 (From Spending)
776 units (From Trade)


Defense Costs 49,579.58M SC$ (From P&L)

Material Costs $35.96 Billion
Salary Costs $.35 Billion
Unfound Costs $13.27 Billion


Airforce Maintenance 11,319.39M SC$ 300 (From Spending)
167,999
Def Weapons Maintenance 4,132.54M SC$ 305 (From Spending)
81,615
Military Bases Maintenance 3,066.15M SC$ 199 (From Spending)
1,909 units (From Trade)
Navy Vessels Maintenance 1.18M SC$ 193 (From Spending)
16 units (From Trade)
Off Weapons Maintenance 1,358.00M SC$ 318 (From Spending)
35,641 units (From Trade)
Aircraft Fuel 5,276.10M SC$ 192 (From Spending)
2,986,905 units (From Trade)
Military Supplies 3,189.89M SC$ 199 (From Spending)
2,416,290 units (From Trade)
Military Services 12,863.38M SC$ 205 (From Spending)
16,268,081 units (From Trade)

Drafted Soldiers 0

Drafted Officers 130,060 at 32,640 2,720/month $353.6 Million

For Reference Only. These are not supposed to draw salary.

Professional Soldiers 1,175,564 at 16,000 1,333/month $1.57 Billion

Professional Officers 284,573 at 32,640 2,720/month $774 Million


Additional Reference From Spending Page

High Tech Services 1,695.80M SC$ 194 (From Spending)
2,547,128 units (From Trade)
Services 13,737.53M SC$ 193 (From Spending)
37,351,520 units (From Trade)
Books And Newspapers 10,489.32M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
11,353,785 units (From Trade)
Construction 29,972.88M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
53,361,777 units (From Trade)
Household Products 11,693.03M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
2,356,976 (From Trade)


Conclusions thus far:

1. Social Security and Transportation Costs seem the most straightforward.

2. Government Costs are the most mysterious and likely mostly out of control of players, short of running a smaller empire.

3. Education and Defense Costs seem mostly accounted for. Education 85%. Defense 75%

4. Ammo cost usage does not appear to be figured into Military Costs on P&L page. Their inclusion would far exceed the listed figure.

5. Health costs likely uses additional, less obvious, materials. 35% of its cost I am unable to reliably conclude.

6. Household products are likely used in one, or more, of these costs, as they appear in government spending on the Spending/Finance page.

7. It cannot be known if the Profit & Loss page values uses materials at the same value as the Spending Finance page. This could account for some differences in cost between the two pages.

8. "Other Products" use for eduction does not specify which product is used.

Aries

Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 07:23 am Click here to edit this post
Just occurred to me that Gasoline is missing. Units use it, so it is likely a component of Defense costs.

Orbiter

Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 02:20 pm Click here to edit this post
for the professionals, i found in the game news that it says they do, draw salaries.

schools and hospitals use more than nurse and teachers and such, LLW and HTX, did you add those in?

Aries

Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 04:42 pm Click here to edit this post
Thanks.

Hospitals 2883

Each / Total / Monthly Income / Total

310 LLWs 893,730 1333.33 $1.20 Billion
280 MLWs 807,240 1706.67 $1.38 Billion
230 HLWs 663,090 2080 $1.38 Billion
240 LLMs 691,920 2506.67 $1.73 Billion
150 MLMs 432,450 3360 $1.45 Billion
75 HLMs 216,225 4213.33 $0.91 Billion
12 EXEs 34,596 9066.67 $0.31 Billion
122 HTEs 351,726 3360 $1.18 Billion
26 HTSs 74,958 5146.67 $0.39 Billion
7 HTXs 20,181 10400 $0.21 Billion

Total $10.14 Billion

Updated Health

Health Costs 59,017.79M SC$ (From P&L)

Known Material Costs $20.85 Billion
Salary Costs $27.06 Billion
Unfound Costs $11.11 Billion


Schools 70508

Each / Total / Monthly Income / Total

8 LLW 564,064 1333.33 $0.75 Billion
12 MLW 846,096 1706.67 $1.44 Billion
1 MLM 70,508 3360 $0.24 Billion
Total $2.43 Billion

High Schools 46358

Each / Total / Monthly Income / Total

8 LLW 370,864 1333.33 $0.49 Billion
17 MLW 788,086 1706.67 $1.35 Billion
1 MLM 46,358 3360 $0.16 Billion
Total $2.00 Billion

Universities 615

Each / Total / Monthly Income / Total

450 LLW 276,750 1333.33 $0.37 Billion
440 MLW 270,600 1706.67 $0.46 Billion
300 HLW 184,500 2080 $0.38 Billion
500 LLM 307,500 2506.67 $0.77 Billion
320 MLM 196,800 3360 $0.66 Billion
215 HLM 132,225 4213.33 $0.56 Billion
20 EXE 12,300 9066.67 $0.11 Billion
31 HTE 19,065 3360 $0.06 Billion
13 HTS 7,995 5146.67 $0.04 Billion
4 HTX 2,460 10400 $0.03 Billion
Total $3.44 Billion

Total $7.87 Billion

Updated Education

Education Costs 36,968.88M SC$ (From P&L)

Known Material Costs $14.05 Billion
Salary Costs $24.73 Billion
Unfound Costs $0 Billion

Found it in game news:

Professional soldiers and officers that are used in the army receive the same salary as the existing soldiers and officers. In case some of the professional soldiers or officers are not used in the army, they are not paid.


Professional Soldiers in Mobile Units 187,500
Professional Soldiers in Other Units 844,029

Total 1,031,529 @1333.33 $1.38 Billion

Professional Officers in Mobile Units 89,500
Professional Officers in Other Units 195,073

Total 284,573 @2720 $.78 Billion
Total $2.16 Billion

Updated Defense

Defense Costs 49,579.58M SC$ (From P&L)

Material Costs $35.96 Billion
Salary Costs $2.51 Billion
Unfound Costs $11.11 Billion


Health + Education + Transportation + Defense

Material Costs $81.10 Billion
Salary Costs $54.30 Billion
Unfound Costs $23.68 Billion

Conclusions

1. Health is a lot closer to accounted for. If household products were confirmed to be a health expense, it would fit right in there.

2. This account for all Education Costs now.

3. Still missing some defense costs. Gasoline is likely one component.

Johanas Bilderberg

Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 06:07 pm Click here to edit this post
I thought we were drinking single malt Scotch and then seeing how far we could launch a stream.

Boy is my face red.

Orbiter

Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 01:07 am Click here to edit this post
we did that, now we are just leaning against a tree trying not to fall over, singing "Can you show me the way to go home..."

and thanks for those numbers aries, they are certainly useful maybe on our next run, we'll be able to decipher more detail. but i think the numbers you made available, offer a degree of detail that is beyond anything i've seen posted before, and very useful for country management

some other things we can delve into, is pop progression along age categories, and the education process. their is some eye opening detail their, in how the process works

Orbiter

Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 01:30 am Click here to edit this post
not to turn this into a empire comparision, but for reference of aircraft fuel. 2 of my countries, with just one each of O and D Airbases, and 5 radar planes, have a consumption in the 500 Tons a month range.

Sandy Shores
Aircraft Fuel 546

Fort Klamath
Aircraft Fuel 521

I'll buy one D air base in each, and post any change/non-change in a couple days.

As far a gasoline, its very possible that it is related to the population consumption of Cars, Total roads, maybe Road maintenance and/or quality plays a part, as well stock piled trucks might play a part? I'll consider a way to experiment with those factors.

Orbiter

Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 06:37 am Click here to edit this post
to begin a discussion of education

dream land
Number of School Children 33,948,451
Number of High School Children 22,774,871
Number of Students 5,037,816
Number of Advanced Level Students 1,218,778

School Children
This is the group of children aged 4 to 12. They all go to school for 8 years, starting with the kindergarten. Nearly all of these kids will later go to high school.

4 to 8 17,006,773
8 to 12 16,941,678

High School Children
This is the group of 12 to 18 years old who enjoy high school education. Some will continue into college or university and become professionals that are needed for a strong economy. Good education is an important factor in the game.

12 to 15 12,669,291
15 to 18 12,631,975

Number of Workers per age
15 to 18 2,303,632
18 to 21 6,866,912

Students
This is the group of young people in the age of 18 to 24 years. They are divided into first level students 18 to 21 years and graduate students in the age group of 21 to 24 years.

Number of Students 5,037,816

18 to 21 12,594,540
21 to 24 12,518,285

LLW MLW
18 to 21 6,866,912 -
21 to 24 4,854,656 1,823,783

House Wives Disabled
21 to 24 1,136,383 329,996

Unemployed?
18 to 21 663,700 - -
21 to 24 457,204 38,407 -

I'll skip that last part of EI, until this isn't overwhelming, its difficult to decipher anything from this, but i believe we can.

i believe their are more than a couple people following this, that can offer incite?

Orbiter

Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 06:57 am Click here to edit this post
some questions,

what effect would a higher school or high school index, compared to universities effect?

what effect does the school index have, after all the students are in school?

and how, other than the obvious, of education priorities, are students graduated? if the question even makes since

CrackerJack

Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 06:05 pm Click here to edit this post
Any Scotch left? lol.

Johanas Bilderberg

Saturday, September 19, 2015 - 03:38 am Click here to edit this post
Always. As soon as these two pass out we can steal their wallets and buy a fresh bottle.

CrackerJack

Saturday, September 19, 2015 - 05:33 pm Click here to edit this post
Lol.


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