On God and the Environment

To stop hijacking another thread I though we should transport our conversation about God and environmental responsibility to a new thread. This way other people's supposed craziness can be forgotten for now and we can focus on our belief systems and other pressing questions like does Nix post too often.

So here are the premises: Firstly, does God order his followers to protect the environment or allow us to use it however we see fit? And secondly, does connection to the earth and the natural world translate into connection to and celebration of God?

This question greatly depends on the belief system in question. For the three peoples of the book (Islam, Judaism and Christianity) there is a firm belief that the natural world is a creation of God and that humanity is to govern over that creation according to God's will. But, there would be the expectation that all should be sustainable. There are more and less direct statements of such a thing, but simply by looking over the law books one can see that there is clearly a purpose for how things were to be done. Much of that is to ensure that disease keeps away from the people and that the land regenerates. Other beliefs have similar prohibitions and concepts (Miq Maq spirituality, Hinduism and to some extent Buddhism come to mind).

"Firstly, does God order his followers to protect the environment or allow us to use it however we see fit?

This assumes that God or any higher power exists, which is scientifically unlikely and unable to be proven. Not saying people don't have the right to believe whatever they want, but those are my beliefs.

I believe we have an obligation to take care of our environment for future generations.

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This assumes that God or any higher power exists, which is scientifically unlikely and unable to be proven.<!-/Quote-!>

Hmmm, That same argument could be used for the great majority of whats considered 'science' now! How many supposed scientific facts are there of antiquity or even today that change by the minute? All because you can see or even at times understand a concept does not mean its impossible. In fact many times because our feeble brains of which we only use 1/10 of 1% we try to make up scenarios to fit whatever outcome we desire and look over certain obvious facts.

T-Mac I do not think God orders' the followers. If such were true, We would not have freedom of choice. Without freedom of choice, We would just be slaves. Love does not include slavery. Love simply states to reach out, be patient, to care, to nurture, ect.. ect... By most in this world love is thought of as good and hate is thought of as evil. Self seeking destruction does not fit very well into love and if this is proposed by We should take care of our environment from our mental health and physical needs to the environment. I would then say under general pretense that if love is the ultimate good, then that would be the connection to a God of Good, and if hate the opposite is the ultimate evil then that would be such a way to communicate to a God of Evil.
On to allow us to use it, Yes, I think we are allowed to use it as we choose as well. Wise or unwise.

Tom, I believe in the freedom of that choice, to not allow you your freedom to choose is not very wise of anyone. I do agree with craig and serpent on some of their statements. As we see in the environment issue, Anyone is free to choose their direction.
I think your point is spot on and very agreeable that you can make God what you wish, right or wrong. It is also plausible that we misunderstand what exactly God is. Here is one theory to think about, What if God is the connection between us all? One connection of many individuals, but with free choice and will. It might be hard to find that connection once you lose reception... might be some of what craig meant when he spoke of old ways that were made to protect us.

Our environment is humans and earth; don't limit it to just pollution. We should try to preserve it for the next generations, but it does seem if we don't change something now that might be in question. Too bad we cannot just see the good way to change, we also must see the bad as well. Maybe one day we will see through the distortion better.

if i hate murder, is that evil? hating evil, is evil? you can't really rate "good" and "evil" as equivalent to love and hate.

so we have to think about what "God," we are talking about. Lawful? Protective? Wise? in all these aspects, there is legitimate room for both love and hate. judgement and mercy. in relation to the the care of our planet, the subject, one would have to make assumptions. one that it'd be wise to preserve the planet for future generations. and two, that it is ours to use.

if your a rancher, you'd care and protect your cattle. but you'd still kill and eat them. it is not wrong to make use of the worlds resources, but at what cost? where is it two much?

Wow interesting and deep topic started here. First and foremost one has to define "God". Is "God" a entity of divine power, spiritual belief, or individual(s) with greater knowledge? That needs to be addressed first.

Next we have to look at ourselves and realize the human species is a parasite. Hear me out kids, a parasite is a organism that feeds of it's host until the resources are depleted. Then moves onto the next host and the cycle continues. Humans are the definition of this.

1. We are depleting the earth for personal gain ($$), not survival. We strip 1000's of acre of rain forest for timber without replacing what we take.
2. We strip the earth top soil for massive agriculture yet we don't replace this top soil. Just rotate crops hoping the nutrients are replaces naturally.
3. We have massive starvation in parts of the world, yet here in America tons of food is wasted.
4. We dig, drill hundreds of feet into the earth for fossil sediment and pollute our atmosphere like no other. Yet energy is key to human survival
5. Humans are war hungry and if you are a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY and have a valuable resource..look out because their will be a good chance it will be exploited by greed, not necessity.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST..Has anyone ever wondered why space exploration is in full gear. The human parasite is looking for a new host to drain it's resources. It may take 20-100 years but we will be on another planted..Mark my words kids..

Is this GODs great plan..for humans to expand, grow without any consideration or repercussions..That I don't know, and it is up to the individual to make the choice.

"In fact many times because our feeble brains of which we only use 1/10 of 1% we try to make up scenarios to fit whatever outcome we desire and look over certain obvious facts."

Exactly - that is why religion exists (in my opinion). Because people are frightened of death and the awful things in the world and want to believe that there is reason behind life and that in the end everything will be better.

I do believe everyone has a right to believe in whatever they want. However, just because the majority of this forum is religious, that does not mean I will not say what I believe.

"Hmmm, That same argument could be used for the great majority of whats considered 'science' now! How many supposed scientific facts are there of antiquity or even today that change by the minute?"

That's where religion and science often clash. Scientists are continually reevaluating evidence and making judgements and conclusions based on new information, whereas religion tends to cling onto the older ways and progress very slowly.
That is why gay people can't marry, why preists can't marry, why women are still treated as the lesser sex, why condoms and enjoyable sex are treated as taboo subjects in African nations (even though both are beneficial).

Yes, it can be said that science has constantly shifted on what is believed. But then again, it took a long time for the Church to admit that the Earth was round, that we orbited the Sun and not the other way around, that the stars were actually other planets. I wonder when the Church will admit that homosexuality does naturally occur in 5% of populations and that it is not a choice made by worshipers of Satan.

Science can often be wrong, but having scientific achievements is not nearly as dangerous as not having any science at all. Could anyone here speak up and honestly say that they would prefer that no one ever discovered that the earth was round and that the Earth orbits the Sun?

I wonder when climate change will be accepted by all as an actual problem? Probably when its too late.

@Josias Good point, but alas we speak of an action vs a person, or to the point I was at, a living organism. The principal you speak is valid; to hate an action is not to hate the living world or the inhabitants their of. We simply do have dislikes and such, but you could say the love of money is evil. I still bring the point of loving an object is not what I was actually saying in my general statement. It does no good for future inhabitants to have no resources. On the other hand, murder is hate. So its does go counter to love, and that would still end in up love vs hate. I expect that a great love could not really hate. Now killing might not have hate, but murder will always have hate.

@devils I think you are somewhat correct about the parasite, but you must know that we can choose to be any animal we want or choose to actually suppress that. We are so disconnected by how the world is organized that we sometimes don't realize we are helping cause this as well. Its like the right hand does not talk to the left to save its life. I think a lot more cares more than we give credit to, but might be misguided by what they assume. Oh BTW, don't forget we spread oil based products to help keep pest and fertilize it. We keep an eye on oil entering waterways, but we run off oil and contaminates into water for crops.

@tom what church are you speaking of? I think some are contrary to what you say. I think they are misguided for it does no good to be afraid and choose to hate one for so little. I think it is just a hard topic for a lot to talk about, on both sides. We just have to realize that they might be hurting and need help. Uncomfortable as it may be, that is a discussion we should not be avoiding. Same with other facts yet ignored. Unfortunate that all sides are capable of making the same mistakes. Like us and the environment, we tend to wait till its too late, but we are also stuck. We did not heed the words back in the 70's and that was really the time to push these new greener technology. We have gotten to a point that it might be too late and we might not get a choice in the matter.

Does anyone still follow the Nuke plant in Japan?

Very interesting rebuttal "Dry" and insight. Personal this is one of the more interesting topics of late. Actual real world/life topics.

To further elaborate on the topic. The old age saying "There is a thin line between religion and science". Is quit true because both need each other.

Lets move even more deep into the conversation/topic. RELIGION is a way of govern the people(s). A way to control the masses and gain power as well as influence.

God is English speaking word to describe the divine. Yahweh if I am not mistaken is middle eastern with the same meaning. I could even go more ancient and use "Sky God" for the Babylonians.

Point being we as humans have to justify/label everything. Like stated by others, humans need a comfort, blanket to help justify the means to the end. Heaven and Hell..Good and Bad...Black and White..Yin and Yang..etc.

What we don't understand or seams super natural is the works of "GOD" in religion. Science on the other hand tries to find the answer. Solve the riddle.

"In My Own Opinion" The general public are SHEEP.(I can care less what part of the world you reside in. It doesn't matter) People need to be led and Guided. Governments of the modern world are taking the role of the Shepard.

The key contributor is the MEDIA. The most powerful influence one can ever have. More powerful than a Nuclear weapon. If you can "spread propaganda" "control the masses" with your own ideology then your one step closer to being a "GOD"
Hence the lack of new for the Japan Nuke Plant. That is old news unless it starts to effect Western live we won't hear about it.

The media i.e the biggest being the internet is unmatched. For example "Sim Country" is a perfect plat form. We have a discussion board and look at all the topics at hand. Whatever the heart desires..just saying guys..

"DON'T BECOME A SHEEP, BECOME THE WOLF AMONG THE SHEEP"...Kuhnast

people are sheep, this is true. its why the western church where able to dominate politics as long as it did.

science has replaced the church as the moral guide, but science, isn't a morality guide, just tool. it has brought us many wonderful things, but also has justified many horrible things.

the church, can be accused of such, but the religion, and morality, itself, doesn't change.

if science says something is possible, like texting in a movie theater, we have a tendency to think thats our right, regardless if it bugs the guy behind us. where as morality would mean to love our neighbor as our self, and put the cell-phone away before some one gets shot in the chest.

one might say one should use common since. but science can't really say anything about that. religion can. and does, with the golden rule. where as science justifies greed as much as it supports moderation.

science leaves it to the individual to decide. history is written by the "victors," that is the people in power make the rules, and educate the young to value the same things, creating a world where previous moral standards are washed away. "the strong survive," and as time goes one we see this, in every aspect of your culture. that if you can, and their is no law against it, you should... but that way of thinking only leads to bitterness, resentment, and hate.

'and we can focus on our belief systems and other pressing questions like does Nix post too often.' LOL T-Mac I'll take that as a complement ;) Anyways bro did you get a answer?

I'm Telling you Bro...God wont save those who wont save his creation (Mother Nature)

In the Book, man was given dominion over the earth,, but it was never said tyhat he should pillage it. Pillaging brings its own judgment--cut down too much vegetation and you get a desert, as in the Sahara. Harvest some species for food without regard to sustainability, and you get extinction, and no more of that food supply, as in the passenger pigeon. Kill off the cat population in a frenzied terror of witchcraft, and you get the Black Death killing off a good share of the population of europe, due to the sudden and unchecked multiplication of the rats. I think the Creator is for now, sitting back tosee just what we will do with the earth; We can destroy ourselves, if we choose to...On the other side, there is a certain amount of lunacy regarding
"protection" of some species at the expense of personal property, as in cases where farmers are mandated to starve rather than grow their crops, because someone claimed to have seem a species of mouse somewhere on his holdings. if you don't think that is true, just check out some of the news stories in the past few years. We probably have a moral mandate to care for the earth. But moderation in all things. Science actually can help us in this regard; we are, after all, given a brain in order to help us solve problems that arise. Too often, however, inventions of Man, being neither good nor evil, can be used for whichever we choose. Ever since the discovery of fire, to the development of nuclear power and radioactive isotpes. This is a discussion humankind has been having for generations, and will continue, unless the earth is wrecked beyond repair...

@ Nix - No I never got an answer to the pressing question of whether or not you post too much.

I think Maclean is speaking more to what I had originally posted and Nix is a bit more harsh about God's love and favor going towards those who protect or abuse our world for their personal gain. I find it hard to believe that the idea of domesticating animals should become a practice of never letting the cows out of the barn and feeding them silage with 10k head crammed together. The argument that we need food or we need cheap food seems to me to lose its force when I see these types of practices. Sure, we have free will, we are using what God has given us, but I think there is something lost here that shows a disconnect between us, nature, animals and God. In fact, I argue that by getting closer to all of it, by freeing ourselves from the need to constantly get more, we can become closer to God.
In relation to what some others here have posted the idea of religion goes beyond simple morals or ethical or social values and hits closer to home at a mental peace level. Praying brings peace to a troubled mind like meditation or Zen-like rhythmic actions - aka the tea ceremony. This inner peace, being ok with who you are now is key to how we need actions like those that religion can give us. What we lose with organized religions is the criticisms that some of you all have voiced here. The corruption, the bastardization of messages, the using theology for power and control actually moves people away from peace because they are constantly striving to be successful within the dictums of the sect, and constantly judging actions of others and the self against the rules and credos. This is why I believe that if we see the hand of God, however sublimely in the natural world we can be with our spiritual self in nature, free from social constraints. This peace and calm gives dignity to things around us in our connection to these things, be they trees, mountains or animals. While many inventions of man are amazing and I am often awed by them, serenity and lightness of being is more often achieved with me beyond the reach of organized religion during times of reflection and tranquility.

LOL TMac. The question I referring to was 'does God order his followers to protect the environment or allow us to use it however we see fit?'

I have been almost absent from the game for two years, so at the moment....No I do not post too much. Wait until I get into the flow of things again LOL

Hi Maclean. Without Mother Nature you are dead. Simple. Mother Nature comes first, then humans. Simple.

God is coming to get you Nix,

mwuhahaha !!!

Not until I have finished what he sent me to do,

mwuhahaha !!!

Oh you're finished buddy boy !

Go hug your last tree before you're burned in tyres.

The snake will have to be defanged so that it yields no more venom.

I may just have to geld you too.

Quiet, for you know not to whom you talk.

WildStallion. This snake has already been defanged a long time ago. But if a snake is not being a snake what else can it be? LOL

Ok Culebra....Game on. I'm on FB and LU. You can bring all the tyres in the World but they wont burn. I have been saving Mother Natures tears.

Careful with the negative snake remarks!

Grrrrr..... I mean Ssssssss!

Did I hear somebody asking for the noise to be kept quiet, sounds like it's just going to have to be game on time again......

Not all snakes need fangs to throttle their prey.

Ponies run at the sight of me, and Nix's are so insignificant that we smash them much as the Haydron collider does a sub atomic particle.

Game on ? It is finished before it started.

Less chat more action Culebra. We know why ponies run at the sight of you. You've been told before...go to Anne Summers.