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Jo Salkilld (White Giant)
All worlds
28 Jun 2011 23:04Link
You're contradicting yourself, Maestro. You say that war levels have not marginalised federations, and at the same time you suggest that federations should be limited to those of a certain war level.
Federations had a number of functions (and I use the past tense deliberately). Not only to protect their members but to teach and support them. Feds are no longer able to protect their members unless they insist that all federation members get to and remain at the same war level - no higher or lower than the other fed members. This limits both the players already in the federation and the players who can join.
Teaching and support are still elements of fed membership, but in your scenario players can only join a fed where their fedmates have the same war experience as them, and are already economically capable of supporting an army. Therefore there will be very little they can teach each other.
If all feds can do
Federations had a number of functions (and I use the past tense deliberately). Not only to protect their members but to teach and support them. Feds are no longer able to protect their members unless they insist that all federation members get to and remain at the same war level - no higher or lower than the other fed members. This limits both the players already in the federation and the players who can join.
Teaching and support are still elements of fed membership, but in your scenario players can only join a fed where their fedmates have the same war experience as them, and are already economically capable of supporting an army. Therefore there will be very little they can teach each other.
If all feds can do
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Maestro2000 (White Giant)
All worlds
28 Jun 2011 23:57Link
@jo
You said feds are marginalised. Not me.
Yes, I believe federation membership should be limited to players that can protect each other.
On Teaching and support:
I remember the good old days when your massive federation used to "teach" new players the econ side of the game.
Many in your academy learned more econ from me. I was building more in their countries than your fed mates...and throwing them some important game tips. The point being players don't need to be in a federation to get econ tips. Same for war tips. Independent players (And players from various federations)are offering free advice on the message board,in the chatroom and direct messaging players that are online.
And on war levels. It was your massive federations complete failure to protect it's members that brought about the war levels rules.
Sorry to say, your federation was in fact a paper tiger.
The
You said feds are marginalised. Not me.
Yes, I believe federation membership should be limited to players that can protect each other.
On Teaching and support:
I remember the good old days when your massive federation used to "teach" new players the econ side of the game.
Many in your academy learned more econ from me. I was building more in their countries than your fed mates...and throwing them some important game tips. The point being players don't need to be in a federation to get econ tips. Same for war tips. Independent players (And players from various federations)are offering free advice on the message board,in the chatroom and direct messaging players that are online.
And on war levels. It was your massive federations complete failure to protect it's members that brought about the war levels rules.
Sorry to say, your federation was in fact a paper tiger.
The
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Jo Salkilld (White Giant)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 00:28Link
Why are you making this personal Maestro?
Yes, I said feds were marginalised by the war levels. You implied that you disagreed. I acknowledged your disagreement and explained why I felt they were. What is it about that that makes you you feel threatened to the point where you descend into insults?
To blame WGC for the implementation of war levels is akin to blaming Christians for the Romans throwing people to the lions. It's a faulty argument on so many levels.
The only point in talking without listening is to hear yourself speak: if you don't listen to others, others will stop listening to you. If you want to engage in serious debate, then please try to be a little more civil.
Hugs and respect
Jo
Yes, I said feds were marginalised by the war levels. You implied that you disagreed. I acknowledged your disagreement and explained why I felt they were. What is it about that that makes you you feel threatened to the point where you descend into insults?
To blame WGC for the implementation of war levels is akin to blaming Christians for the Romans throwing people to the lions. It's a faulty argument on so many levels.
The only point in talking without listening is to hear yourself speak: if you don't listen to others, others will stop listening to you. If you want to engage in serious debate, then please try to be a little more civil.
Hugs and respect
Jo
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Vladimir Lenin (Little Upsilon)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 00:40Link
I agree that War levels were the WORST idea ever. Who the hell's idea was that? I remember because I am also a returnee. My previous name was ErichHonecker (In fact, you can still see one of the spaceports being used by ErichHonecker on Carina; yup that was me). Anyway, I was playing when there were no war levels and it was so much better without them!
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Maestro2000 (Fearless Blue)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 00:49Link
@jo
The collapse of the WGC last summer and active player debate on the subject ushered in war levels.
Do you think the gamemaster would have introduced war levels if the Whiteboy crew had taken out any other federation? Be real.
It was the collapse of your massive federation that made the gamemaster act with rule changes.
Cheers,
Maestro
The collapse of the WGC last summer and active player debate on the subject ushered in war levels.
Do you think the gamemaster would have introduced war levels if the Whiteboy crew had taken out any other federation? Be real.
It was the collapse of your massive federation that made the gamemaster act with rule changes.
Cheers,
Maestro
J
Jo Salkilld (Golden Rainbow)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 01:17Link
Maestro, now you're not even listening to yourself. If you were, you wouldn't say such silly things.
Are you seriously arguing that WGC was responsible for rule changes we never asked for, just because we lost a war? That the players who decided to attack us cannot be held in any way responsible for the result of their actions? By that reasoning, the existence of the gas chambers was the fault of the Jewish people for allowing the Nazis to rise to power ...
I think this silliness of yours is just an attempt to inflame old animosity that most of us have long since forgotten about. None of us care about why it happened, we care about changing it for the better. Don't you have a war of your own to fight, that you have to try to create one between other people? Or maybe you're just trying to deflect attention away from the subject under discussion, because no one was agreeing with you ...
Hugs and respect
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Are you seriously arguing that WGC was responsible for rule changes we never asked for, just because we lost a war? That the players who decided to attack us cannot be held in any way responsible for the result of their actions? By that reasoning, the existence of the gas chambers was the fault of the Jewish people for allowing the Nazis to rise to power ...
I think this silliness of yours is just an attempt to inflame old animosity that most of us have long since forgotten about. None of us care about why it happened, we care about changing it for the better. Don't you have a war of your own to fight, that you have to try to create one between other people? Or maybe you're just trying to deflect attention away from the subject under discussion, because no one was agreeing with you ...
Hugs and respect
L
Lambolicious (White Giant)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 01:22Link
why is it showing that conventional missle and conventional missle battery can only be traded on the space market, trying to sell my stock of conventional missles on white giant, since i can't seen to buy the batteries, anyone want them?
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Vladimir Lenin (Little Upsilon)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 01:28Link
Look guys, I don't care about any ancient federations or ancient wars that went on a long time ago. The war levels may have been necessary then, but they are ruining the game now! You guys can keep passing the blame around but its not gonna help anything right now! We need a new poll started to get them removed.
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Maestro2000 (Little Upsilon)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 01:46Link
@jo
There is nothing silly here.
At elite group of war players took down the largest federation on WG world last summer. Perhaps the largest federation on any world at the time.
From the ashes of that conflict War Levels were born.
WGA were not the Christians of the ancient world or the Jewish people from the 1930's and 1940's.
These two groups were a minority in the examples you bring to the table. Clearly the WGA was no minority group when the conflict began last summer. The perception was your federation collectively was the supreme superpower on WG world before the conflict...and a paper tiger thereafter.
Cheers,
Maestro
There is nothing silly here.
At elite group of war players took down the largest federation on WG world last summer. Perhaps the largest federation on any world at the time.
From the ashes of that conflict War Levels were born.
WGA were not the Christians of the ancient world or the Jewish people from the 1930's and 1940's.
These two groups were a minority in the examples you bring to the table. Clearly the WGA was no minority group when the conflict began last summer. The perception was your federation collectively was the supreme superpower on WG world before the conflict...and a paper tiger thereafter.
Cheers,
Maestro
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Vladimir Lenin (Little Upsilon)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 01:46Link
And I volunteer to start the poll as soon as they will allow me.
J
Josias (Fearless Blue)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 01:52Link
as i said above, lets not re-open old wounds, as their is much i could say. i doubt any one has forgotten what side of that war i was on.
although something to point out, the mob and allies, overwhelmingly won the shooting war, but just as overwhelmingly lost the PR war, that ended with war levels. be careful what you wish for, especially when you twist facts to get your way.
but back to the subject. easiest resolution would be to make the peaceful game mode, just that. although their would be allot of complainers, as the peaceful mode is harder to level up. honestly, that is fair, the "include defense," game levels, would mean you must defend your country.
i recently started stripping some countries that i just don't have the time to maintain. the cash i got out of what amounted to skeleton defenses, had a higher GC value than the population. and these where 40M+ pop. the war game is much more involv
although something to point out, the mob and allies, overwhelmingly won the shooting war, but just as overwhelmingly lost the PR war, that ended with war levels. be careful what you wish for, especially when you twist facts to get your way.
but back to the subject. easiest resolution would be to make the peaceful game mode, just that. although their would be allot of complainers, as the peaceful mode is harder to level up. honestly, that is fair, the "include defense," game levels, would mean you must defend your country.
i recently started stripping some countries that i just don't have the time to maintain. the cash i got out of what amounted to skeleton defenses, had a higher GC value than the population. and these where 40M+ pop. the war game is much more involv
J
Jo Salkilld (Golden Rainbow)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 02:02Link
I totally agree Josias. Make the peaceful game mode exactly that, with higher requirements in non-defence areas and protection from attacks. Allow those who wish to go for the war option to do so, with benefits to encourage them, and lose the current war level restrictions on PvP wars.
Keeping C3 levels and allowing those in peaceful mode to attack C3s would help newer players learn the war game before losing the protection and give non-peaceful players an alternative to warring on other players just to raid their assets.
Restrictions on swapping between the two modes should prevent abuse, without making it impossible.
Hugs and respect
Jo
Keeping C3 levels and allowing those in peaceful mode to attack C3s would help newer players learn the war game before losing the protection and give non-peaceful players an alternative to warring on other players just to raid their assets.
Restrictions on swapping between the two modes should prevent abuse, without making it impossible.
Hugs and respect
Jo
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Open Sesame (Little Upsilon)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 03:01Link
I'd recommend a time delay similar to that used for new leader countries.
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Psycho_Honey
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 06:28Link
I miss the game and the players that got me to pay in to stay and play back in 06-07. Since then the game has been steadily in free-fall due to the changes that appear to only be 'limiting' in nature. We have witnessed W3 replace an infinite struggle of noob/asshat vs veteran/prick that gave the game some substance, with an ever increasing attempt at leveling that just wasn't realistic or practical and it has hurt the game more than helped. Despite the changes which have pissed me off and others, the biggest hurt to the game is the players who felt disenfranchised by some haphazardly implemented changes and left as a result. You can have the best game in the world, but absent of dedicated players, you have but an empty shell...
Edit: Ooooh, and uh, I miss an 'active' Laguna. Big loss there
Luuv ya Big Guy!
Edit: Ooooh, and uh, I miss an 'active' Laguna. Big loss there
Luuv ya Big Guy!M
Maestro2000
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 17:02Link
We miss you Wendy!
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Sunny (Kebir Blue)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 18:31Link
Wendy should be the one and only GM.
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Kitsuné (Fearless Blue)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 21:27Link
War levels give players a choice about whether they want to fight or not. This is a good thing.
The only bad part about war levels is that it does inhibit federations somewhat from fighting together.
IMO just let anyone who is WL 3+ fight anyone else 3+.
The only bad part about war levels is that it does inhibit federations somewhat from fighting together.
IMO just let anyone who is WL 3+ fight anyone else 3+.
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WildEyes
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 22:06Link
Summary of this Forum post: Maestro has no idea what it used to be like. Jo, and many others do (as far as federations) and alliances are concerned. where you depended on your allies for War protection, not your war level.
Federations made the game lively, and players earned, as keto calls it, "Swag" also, led to rivalry and of course, world war...and Multi World Wars a few times..
Mob is done, I think all of us are in accords that we should split into new feds and start Federations over. Split the old major federations up (AKA vet players) remix them up, and get new players (registered) and a few (free) players to join our feds, train them help, etc..get them to register. Obviously WGC no offense Jo is done, or well they've made their impact on history. But that was an entirely different game than what we have now. Though i do think adjustments need to be made to the War engine/upgrades/levels/
Federations made the game lively, and players earned, as keto calls it, "Swag" also, led to rivalry and of course, world war...and Multi World Wars a few times..
Mob is done, I think all of us are in accords that we should split into new feds and start Federations over. Split the old major federations up (AKA vet players) remix them up, and get new players (registered) and a few (free) players to join our feds, train them help, etc..get them to register. Obviously WGC no offense Jo is done, or well they've made their impact on history. But that was an entirely different game than what we have now. Though i do think adjustments need to be made to the War engine/upgrades/levels/
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Crafty
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 22:34Link
If you're not an asshat then you dont have anything to fear as a newb without war levels or even secured. New countries dont have any assets worth raiding anyway, hell, even population is not worth the raid nowadays.
Now if you do have assets worth raiding, you also have the means, and by then the knowledge, to defend them. Especially if you join a good fed. A bully will get his/her upcomance from other players, witness Wendys treatment of newb bashers.
So, for those reading that don't remember original sim, the game needed a lot of diplomacy, a sense of community (even if people were at each others throats) and as the 2 J's have both highlighted, this is what WL's have destroyed.
Maybe the compulsion to direct trade in space will bring back a bit more player interaction, when you have to have allies to get what you need, but that econ only bias is not the game I joined. I cant see it creating any good
Now if you do have assets worth raiding, you also have the means, and by then the knowledge, to defend them. Especially if you join a good fed. A bully will get his/her upcomance from other players, witness Wendys treatment of newb bashers.
So, for those reading that don't remember original sim, the game needed a lot of diplomacy, a sense of community (even if people were at each others throats) and as the 2 J's have both highlighted, this is what WL's have destroyed.
Maybe the compulsion to direct trade in space will bring back a bit more player interaction, when you have to have allies to get what you need, but that econ only bias is not the game I joined. I cant see it creating any good
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Crafty
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 22:41Link
I was wondering, who agrees with the schools policy here of not allowing kids to compete in sports, athletics etc. because there will always be a loser, and that loser might get his/her feelings hurt, and be emotionally scarred for life?
I mean, come on... has the world gone mad, or has it just been taken over by bleeding heart politically correct liberals? Jozi?
I mean, come on... has the world gone mad, or has it just been taken over by bleeding heart politically correct liberals? Jozi?
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Maestro2000 (White Giant)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 23:43Link
@WildEyes
Hey, I wasn't around three year ago, but I was around last summer. (Started playing the game Sept 2009)
What war protection did WGA give it's members last summer when a group of hignly skilled veterans destroyed them for all to see.
Your remark above is flawed.
The fallout from last summers conflict led to the GM creating War Levels.
We can't go back to the "good old days".
Fearless Remark...
FB World - A world with 6,159 countries. I play there on peaceful mode. So what, the world is swimming with available countries. Look around that world. Maybe there are 200 or so active countries in peaceful mode. That leaves a shitload of countries available for your war pleasures.
Cheers,
Maestro
Hey, I wasn't around three year ago, but I was around last summer. (Started playing the game Sept 2009)
What war protection did WGA give it's members last summer when a group of hignly skilled veterans destroyed them for all to see.
Your remark above is flawed.
The fallout from last summers conflict led to the GM creating War Levels.
We can't go back to the "good old days".
Fearless Remark...
FB World - A world with 6,159 countries. I play there on peaceful mode. So what, the world is swimming with available countries. Look around that world. Maybe there are 200 or so active countries in peaceful mode. That leaves a shitload of countries available for your war pleasures.
Cheers,
Maestro
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Josias (Fearless Blue)
All worlds
29 Jun 2011 23:50Link
i like your example Crafty
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Crafty (Kebir Blue)
All worlds
30 Jun 2011 00:08Link
Poor Maestro still doesn't understand.
Taking C3s is not the war game.
The war game is interacting with other players, diplomacy, tact, friends, deceit even, playing a role playing game. A MMORPG maestro, thats what SC is, a MMORPG, remember?
Taking C3s is not the war game.
The war game is interacting with other players, diplomacy, tact, friends, deceit even, playing a role playing game. A MMORPG maestro, thats what SC is, a MMORPG, remember?
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Maestro2000 (Fearless Blue)
All worlds
30 Jun 2011 01:02Link
@crafty
I'm all for the war option for all players at War Level 3 on FB world and a somewhat higher level on other worlds. Fight C3's, fight other players, form your alliances, whatever. You guys can go have a ball.
But there are a percentage of players in this game that wish to play under a peaceful mode. That lot includes me.
Cheers,
Maestro
I'm all for the war option for all players at War Level 3 on FB world and a somewhat higher level on other worlds. Fight C3's, fight other players, form your alliances, whatever. You guys can go have a ball.
But there are a percentage of players in this game that wish to play under a peaceful mode. That lot includes me.
Cheers,
Maestro
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VICI (White Giant)
All worlds
30 Jun 2011 01:36Link
get rid of war levels please