Atheists and Atheism (Little Upsilon)

Pope Sam, what is this..some huckster pays enough attention to the little details of his scam to ask you for an "account number," and therefore Jozi exists? Where's the logic?

Besides, how do I know you didn't just forge Tom's name on there and make it all up? Hey, look at this:

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Jojo the Hun (Fearless Blue)
Monday, April 13, 2009 - 09:87 am Click here to edit this post We received a payment into our PO box recently and it was made out to the wrong party. From now on, make your checks out to "Jojo the Hun" Don't worry about writing your account number.<!-/Quote-!>

Therefore, Jozi doesn't exist.

Behold proof of the existence of Jozi:

"Received 19 Gold Coins because Country N00b Farm on WG was rated 7"

With faith and ritual you too can win Jozi's favor. Jakester has also brought testimony. Tom Willard was able to see 12 dollars even though it was hidden inside of a cracker jack box:

"jakester34
Friday, March 13, 2009 - 03:28 pm Click here to edit this post Thanks Tom,... I mailed 12 US dollars and used cardboard from a Saltines Cracker box to obscure the cash. You are an honest man Tom, ..."

Truly a miracle.

The wisdom of Tom is indeed mighty.

May he bring forth great bounty from the Sim Creator including the next update to the war engine quickly. So that we may increase our sacrifices in Jozi's honor.

Siva,
i agree that Meursault is a moral cipher. but maybe that's the point. what does matter? how do we deal with that "benign indifference"? where do we find significance in a universe where our only certainty is death and that all else is our constructed realities.

this might be helpful for our conversation.
theologian Marcus Borg in his freshmen lectures would often get young students come up to him and say, "i'm just here to fulfill a requirement. i want you to know that i don't believe in God." Borg would respond, "so, tell me more about this god you don't believe in." i pose the same question. in order to understand what isn't, tell us what is--your concept of this dead god.

the discussion about Joziism and son Tom Willard is interesting in as much as many still hold that God is this capricious rule maker that is constantly changing the rules. we either become angry with that god, try to placate him/her with some offerings, or just check out completely. and Tom is supposed to mediate. but we don't trust him since he's the god head's spokesman and perceived to be in his camp. but, if there is a God, is that what God is like?

Shinto.

I wonder how many of you non-believers call out God's name when you have no where else to turn?

I convinced myself that there is no God and at a time when I would have usually have called out Gods name, I did'nt. It was one of the most overwhelming moments of my life. Instead of going into a semi trance, which in turn calmed me down and gave me the peace I needed to work out a way through it, I stayed in a state of anguish and hopelessness. I got through it, but it scared the crap out of me.
The true non-believer would never use the word God in times of pain or joy. I would bet that 80% of you who say you don't believe still use Gods name in those times.

Anyways. I'm 99% sure that there is no God. But I'm not stupid enough to deny something that I don't know.

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Anyways. I'm 99% sure that there is no God. But I'm not stupid enough to deny something that I don't know.<!-/Quote-!>

Shame this sort of logic doesn't apply to all of your arguments.

Quote from miles just incase he changes it to make me look like a sap 'Shame this sort of logic doesn't apply to all of your arguments.'

What? I'm not stupid enough to deny that there might be a problem with us polluting, destroying and consuming the natural world.
Come on. Keep this thread about God and not me.

Unlike you, I have yet to change my argument in any way shape or form as gaps in my knowledge base appear.

You're certainly daft enough to draw conclusion without evidence, personal or otherwise, regardless of the subject matter behind it. And more than willing to impose your view upon others whilst crying out at anyone who would dare to do the same.

There's a word which describes thay: hypocrit.

You look like a sap without any help from me.

Well, that certainly took off. I will craft a reply to some people.

TGK: An emotional argument from ignorance. "(paraphrase) current understanding seems insufficient when compared to what i feel"

Zdenek: Atheism is the same as theism in that both are responses to the question: Is there a god? They are markedly different from that point on. I would be willing to distinguish religious theism from nonreligious theism. But I would argue that nonreligious theism is really deism.

Illuminatus: I would agree on the assumtion. I would in fact elevate it to the level of knowledge in that I can say I 'know' I will not win the lottery tommorow even though I cannot be absolutely certain.

Orbiter: I assume that when you mention 'God' (NB capitialisation) that you refer to the Christian god Yahweh (ie omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent). I would argue that this is logically imposs

You don't know me, so how can you say that?
All I know is what I know. And what I don't know I hope one day I will. Until then I will say I know what I know and don't know what I don't know.

"I would bet that 80% of you who say you don't believe still use Gods name in those times."

That's true. I dropped something on my foot the other day and immediately said "Ouch God damn it!" True story.

WRT Pascal's wager:
His main argument is that, basically, if God exists and I believe in him, I gain everything whereas if God does not exist and I believe in him, I lose nothing.

If belief in God were simply a switch that I can flip on or off, I would agree.

However, it is not the case that I lose nothing by believing in a God that doesn't exist. Belief in God usually equates to following some particular religion. And following a particular religion means that I must follow some archaic tradition and allow other people and/or some book to dictate to me what I may believe and how I may live my life. What is really at stake here is my freedom to live life on my own terms. Considering tha

Danger,
"Since I do not put my faith in god(s) does that mean that he is not the ground of my being?"

that's correct. but the argument goes that even though we may not put faith or have belief in a deity, we still have faith in something. it may be self, work, ideology, drugs or fucking. if not, we truly become nihilists or psychotic. the question then is, what do we want to place our faith?

"When you say "the way things are" are you invoking the pantheistic god is everything and everywhere argument? "

not pantheistic, but panentheistic. this is a process that is both unchanging but also is a state of being and change. God in this concept is not personified as the orginator of a three tiered universe, but dynamic but at the same time unchanging. as a believer, i lean into or embrace this creator/creation in its awesomeness, beauty and frightfulness. and each moment i encounter that f

nix: I do not mean to assert that I know anything about you. I just want to point out that many people use the word 'know' to describe a state of conviction when, strictly, 'know' means 'certain', 'absolute'. I guess you are with the majority, which may be my fallacy, and would likely say 'know' when you really mean 'convinced by repetitous evidence to support the fact'.

My point is that people seem willing to use 'know' in some ableit, benign, contexts when they are unwilling to use the same word in the context of all powerful supreme beings.

I know im not going to win the lottery tommorrow in the same way I know there is no supreme being.


Parsifal: I am unsure of your definition of faith. I believe that drugs (and the rest) exist in the same way i believe self exists. Moreover, I have sufficient evidence to elevate that belief to the level of knowledge. I have

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"I would bet that 80% of you who say you don't believe still use Gods name in those times."

That's true. I dropped something on my foot the other day and immediately said "Ouch God damn it!" True story.<!-/Quote-!>

lol... I always blame God for every little thing, as I am a calvinist on tuesdays.

The Young British Soldier

When the 'arf-made recruity goes out to the East
'E acts like a babe an' 'e drinks like a beast,
An' 'e wonders because 'e is frequent deceased
Ere 'e's fit for to serve as a soldier.
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
So-oldier OF the Queen!

Now all you recruities what's drafted to-day,
You shut up your rag-box an' 'ark to my lay,
An' I'll sing you a soldier as far as I may:
A soldier what's fit for a soldier.
Fit, fit, fit for a soldier . . .

First mind you steer clear o' the grog-sellers' huts,
For they sell you Fixed Bay'nets that rots out your guts --
Ay, drink that 'ud eat the live steel from your butts --
An' it's bad for the young British soldi

You can argue Miles Prower, but I will not.

I went through this argument when Dawkins "The God Delusion" and an interview with him on http://www.alternet.org/ and elsewhere was published and I not going through it again. I think I do understand the definitions of deism/theism yet, and as you stated, when it comes to God non/existence they are same to me.

hmm to contribute something

http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx

1. Theravada Buddhism (100%)
2. Secular Humanism (89%)
3. Nontheist (83%)
4. Unitarian Universalism (83%)
5. Liberal Quakers (61%)
6. Taoism (44%)
7. Neo-Pagan (41%)
8. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (25%)
9. Mahayana Buddhism (23%)
10. Jainism (19%)
11. New Age (19%)
12. Orthodox Quaker (19%)
13. Hinduism (14%)
14. Seventh Day Adventist (14%)
15. Reform Judaism (11%)
16. Bahá'í Faith (8%)
17. New Thought (8%)
18. Scientology (8%)
19. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (2%)
20. Church

cool, I'm 35% Mormon!

35% what part? lol

I'm 1/3 mormon! Does that mean Illuminatus and I can marry each other now?

Geez, tuco... Lots of 0% going there. My results go from 1/3 (Mormon) to 1 (Unitarian Universalism - I think Bart Simpson killed me on a videogame once). This is somewhat amusing tho:

10. Reform Judaism (75%)
11. Orthodox Judaism (73%)

Hmm, well... I kind of like the idea of being polygamous, so I think that answers the question of which part of me is Mormon ^_^

(I know most Mormons don't do that any more, lol)

Danger,
i don't make a strong distinction between belief and faith and possibly i should. however, it doesn't seem that important. it's a little bit of hair splitting. but for the sake of the discussion here are a couple of ideas (not my own) that i can pretty much hang my hat on.

"faith can be used in two senses. in the first, faith is a qualtiy or attitude that characterizes human existence. this may be meant as in such a statement as, 'He is a man of faith.' in the second use, faith may mean the contents or set of beliefs a person holds. such use is implied in the saying, "he believes in the Christian faith." the first use is the most proper. in this case faith means confidence or trust in God rather than belief in certain doctrines. faith is necessary for any particular beliefs. faith always has its ground in some being or power, and in Christianity faith has its ground in God."