A new phenomenon will soon occur... (White Giant)

Agreed FB, I'd be perfectly happy with a federal mandate that all states cover their citizens with the states figuring out the best way to get it done in their state...no reason it has to be a nationally run program instead of state managed. Under such a system many different solutions could be tested and discovered best practices could be copied to attain maximum efficiency.

Many other programs currently run by the federal government should probably be done the same way, more state managed so that there are multiple solutions tested. That's something I do like about programs like 'Race to the Top', set a goal and let independent parties like states figure out how to best achieve them. Companies like Google and Netflix use this kind of strategy to innovate all the time...it's clever and utilizes what we do best, compete for financial rewards.

Why can that happen with food, but not with health care? The last time I asked this Wendy gave an incoherent response, which I took to mean she had no good answer. Can either of you, or anyone else, do better?

Again, Jojo, "your mouth would be put to better use if you learned to give good blo(w) jobs..."

I thought that would be coherent enough for even you to understand.

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Why can that happen with food, but not with health care? The last time I asked this Wendy gave an incoherent response, which I took to mean she had no good answer. Can either of you, or anyone else, do better?<!-/Quote-!>

You are comparing the incomparable. They are different markets. Suppliers possess greater power, consumers behave differently and the goods/services are significantly different. You eat everyday, you only resort to healthcare every n years; you spend $0,05 for a piece of bread, you spend $100 for a single x-ray. You spend your running budget on food, you spend your savings on healthcare; bla bla bla.

You won't discover the gunpowder in this issue.

Damn LG you are lucky to get a $100 X-Ray

Specific X-Ray Procedures and National Cost Averages
Body X Ray Cost Average $1,100
Bone X-Ray Cost Average $1,400
Facial X-Ray Cost Average $280
X-Ray of Brain Cost Average $1,450
Skull X-Ray Cost Average $290
Eye X-Ray Cost Average $650
Mastoid X-Ray Cost Average $850
Sinus X-Ray Cost Average $190
Nasal X-Ray Cost Average $180
Jaw X-Ray Cost Average $310
Teeth X-Ray Cost Average $675
Salivary Duct X-Ray Cost Average $1,250
Neck X-Ray Cost Average $280
Pituitary Saddle X-Ray Cost Average $340
Chest X-Ray Cost Average $370
Breastbone X-Ray Cost Average $210
Rib X-Ray Cost Average $220
Mammary Duct X-Ray Cost Average $2,325
Abdominal X-Ray Cost Average $240
GI Tract X-Ray Cost Average $400
X-Ray Guide for Stomach Tube Cost Average $2,475
Small Bowel X-Ray (Small Intestine) Cost Average $250

Okay, so you guys and psychos have all made the point of health care costing more than food. Point #1. Then, health care costs are more erratic than food expenditures, and more importantly have a long tail (small probabilities of very large costs). Point #2. There are other arguments you've mentioned but not developed much. Those seem to be your big arguments as to why health care can't be provided for by the free market, while food can.

Point #1, high cost: I don't think the cost of health care affects how well the free market can function. We spend more on another necessity, housing, for example, and the free market works pretty well. In fact, government interventions seem to mess things up as much as they help, maybe more. I don't see any particular reason why a higher cost should mean that the free market can't provide it. Just as a side note, I think health care costs are more on the order of twice

You answered your own question, Jo.

"Routine expenses" are copays. Full cost for even routine services equals many peoples grocery bill for the week.

Catastrophic policies with high, several thousand $, deductibles are scarcely worth the premiums. They cost 25-50% as much as regular policies, not to mention that a lawyer is frequently required to get these companies to honor claims.

You hit the nail on head without realizing it, Jo.

Third party insurance is all about spreading risk.

What makes health care unique is that for many, if not most, it is a routine expense.

The boomers have been driving up demand for services for a generation. Thus, the pressure on the supply side driving up costs. Simple economics. Demand rises, prices rise.

Further complicating the math is the fact that more and more of the young and healthy are forgoing coverage as policy costs rise. Thus the costs are be

A nanny state that say . . . forces you to buy health insurance?

What i find curious is that the complete thread has derailed into "pro and cons of universal health care in the USA", while the thread was basically made for responses to the Zeitgeist movement and a different view as humanity as a whole.

Can we get back on topic ?

I doubt anyone wants to step Beyond Freedom and Dignity.

I personally am a supporter of zeitgeist. So your doubt is invalid

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Okay, so you guys and psychos have all made the point of health care costing more than food.<!-/Quote-!>

Read again.

Not quite true Laguna, I personally have cost the NHS over 100,000 GBP in the last year (NHS = National Health Service of Great Britain), that (do your math) equates to 200 GBP a week ish, and not a one off, that is for the last YEAR alone.

And you know where the vast majority of that money goes? well, I'll tell you...

The Pharma companies. Private companies driven by market forces on a monthly, yearly whatever basis, they dont equate for one offs costing people their savings, its a constant demand and because the NHS has to achieve certain targets set by the govvernment it has no alternative than to pay these companies what they demand for their patented drugs.

PS. Having lived in the US and the UK and having had need of both health systems, you can all demand choice and the right not to pay for societies (someone elses) health care, but remember your stance now when your Grandad or Mom or, God forb

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"Routine expenses" are copays. Full cost for even routine services equals many peoples grocery bill for the week.<!-/Quote-!>

Stop right there! You're just saying in a different way that we pay as much or more for health care as we do for food.

So what? Why does that mean that health care is different? We pay for our own food. Why can't we pay for our own health care?

"What makes health care unique is that for many, if not most, it is a routine expense." Please explain why we can pay all of our routine expenses except for health care. It's not at all obvious to me why that should be so.

"Catastrophic policies with high, several thousand $, deductibles are scarcely worth the premiums." Explain! I mean, if it saves you from exposure to bankruptcy, and/or saves your life by making you able to pay for very expensi

Good for you, Jo. Not laying down without a fight.

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So what? Why does that mean that health care is different? We pay for our own food. Why can't we pay for our own health care? <!-/Quote-!>

We can shop for food, diet, purchase large qualities at sales, control our needs to a large degree, etc. In other words... shop.

No such realistic options exist for healthcare. There are many reasons for this, but the situation is highly unlikely to change.

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"What makes health care unique is that for many, if not most, it is a routine expense." Please explain why we can pay all of our routine expenses except for health care. It's not at all obvious to me why that should be so.<!-/Quote-!>

Same answer to previous query with the addition of scale.
Have you heard of insurance comp

Okay, I wanted to see if anyone else had something to say before I attempted to argue my piece.

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The boomers have been driving up demand for services for a generation. Thus, the pressure on the supply side driving up costs. Simple economics. Demand rises, prices rise.

Further complicating the math is the fact that more and more of the young and healthy are forgoing coverage as policy costs rise. Thus the costs are being spread over a smaller base of policy holders. Prices rise again.

I know its hard to accept that the market does not provide for a solution to the problem that will be socially palatable for our society, but there you have it. The market does not care about social equity or morality of any kind.

Those values are the responsibility of society as expressed through our political system and government. Taxation, by its very nature, is about redistribution of

/me Vomits

As always, John, an intelligent and extremely rational counterargument.

My reply will likely not be received well by your very logical mind.

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Now, I should be equipped to answer your final question.
1. The reality is that you are arguing that one group should support another group.
2. The reality is that the alternative to resource redistribution does not result in a nanny state.
3. Each person is responsible for taking care of themselves.
4. Each person is only entitled to that which the are capable of providing themselves or is voluntarily provided by others.
5. The reality is that medical care costs money.
6. Irrational expectations are meaningless.<!-/Quote-!>

1. That is exactly my argument.
The notion theat every man is an island and that we are completely responsible for ourselves is a centerpiece of Cons

The part that you're stretching here is that I'm saying that "every man is an island." I'm not saying this at all. I perfectly understand that we live in a society that exists as an extraordinarily complex of relationships. I did not invent the drugs, I did not produce the chemicals, I did not conduct the science, I do not offer the insurance, I do not conduct the operations, I do not create the wealth, etc., etc. I'm saying that because this is true I do not have any right to dictate how those that do these things should use them. If someone offers a drug for sale, I have no right to it . . . except that right which is gained by agreement to voluntary exchange. If someone offers a health insurance policy, I have no right to it . . . except that right which is gained through voluntary exchange. If someone out of their kindness offers me something for free, I have no right to it . . . except that right which is granted b

John, You are absolutely correct.

I could put up any number of quotes here about the confiscatory stupidy of taxation over the last millenia.

The problem is , my friend, that we have simply traveled too far down the path to socialistic government and society.

We may decry it, but not deny it.

Therefore, the issue is what to do about pressing problems that are politically acceptable to our populace and political system.

Ideological arguments about the rightness, wrongness, or shoulda, woulda, coulda of how we can't tax our way to prosperity are just so much wasted time.
This is the system we have inherited from the thieves in government and big business that have long enriched themselves from other's labor.

That is simple reality.

So when it comes to getting health care to those who can't afford it, as well as keep the lid on social unrest, I will shut up and pay my taxes.