W3C - Investment Funds Payout

The payments by the investment funds will be increased.

The previous level of 0.6% of the fund value per game year is increased to 0.7% and will increase further in the coming days and may reach 1.2%.

this will increase the tax income of countries and we will watch the markets as the purchasing of products will increase with the income of the population.

The payments are only taking place if the funds have the money to pay.
If the total value of the investment fund goes very low, payments stop.

If the fund has the assets but no cash, they will sell some shares to raise cash.

currently nearly all funds have mainly cash.

thanks for telling us

at 1.2, its highly possible that most dividend payments wont keep up with the pay out based just on the stock value,

is 1.2 a semi-temp measure to pay down the IFs? its possible that at that high of a payment, that IFs will sell stock nearly as fast as they buy them to meet the pay out requirements

I'm paying 50 billion a month now at 0.6%

Paying 100 Billion a month to my people is astronomically high.

i like the pay out, ironically, with the old system, it would have litterally taken 20 rl years of investing into my IF, to equal the same pay out, lol

i'm mixed about the forced sell out, to make payments, it makes since, i get where the GM are going, i can't say i like it, but the GM have hinted at it for years, so i can't really complain, i can't really complain about the high pay out, except that at some point it will need to come back to 0.5-0.6 in order for smaller investors to ever get anywhere

i'm hoping that this doesn't take so much time that it gets forgotten, perhaps thats why the pay outs are so high?

Thanks for the heads up!

Will the cash investment fund ever drop low enough as a result of the payments, so that I won't be able to purchase a large quantity of shares anymore?

You said "if the total value of the investment fund goes very low, payments stop.", is there a specific number?

Citizens with higher income invest some of their money. You can view this investment fund and how it performs.

Private Investments
Cash Flow
Previous Cash Investment Fund 71,172,186M SC$ Total Investment FundCash
New Contributions by the Population 10,305M SC$ Contributions to the Investment Fund
Dividend from Private Investments 11,321M SC$ Dividend Income
Income from Selling Shares 0M SC$ Income from Fund Shares Sold This Month
Cost of Buying Shares 0M SC$ Cost of Shares Bought This Month
Payout to Workers Last Month (0.70% Per Year Of Total Fund Assets) -53,478M SC$ Amount Paid Out By The Fund
Current Cash Investment Fund 71,140,335M SC$ Fund Total Cash

Assets
Current Cash Investment Fund 71,140,335M SC$ Fund Total Cash
Investment Fund Investments 20,492,921M SC$ Value of the Fund Share Portfolio
Total Funds Assets 91,633,256M SC$ Total Investment Fund

Payout to Workers
Percentage Of Fund Payout Per Year 0.70 %
Available for Payments (0.70% Per Year Of Total Fund Assets) 53,478M SC$ Amount Paid Out By The Fund
Number of Employed Workers 79,151,043 Number of working people
Number of Unemployed Workers 3,970,251 Number of Jobless People
Total Number of Workers 82,805,294 Number of Fund Payment Recievers
Profit per Worker (53,478M SC$ / 82,805,294) 646 SC$ Investment Fund Amount per Paid Person
Percentage of Low Level Worker Salary 41.97 % Fund Payment as Percentage of LLW Salary


Im just saying that if i goes to the 1.2% andy suggests even with a max invest i will LOSE money and not gain anything. Even investing all my IF fund into stocks and multiplying the income by 4 i still dont make enough to cover the costs when it increases 1.2%

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Even investing all my IF fund into stocks and multiplying the income by 4 i still dont make enough to cover the costs when it increases 1.2%-sup"<!-/Quote-!>

sup, i think thats the point! they haven't said it often, but every once and a while, for years now, they've made the designation of "truly public," corps, they are forcing things in that direction, in addition to the forced reduction of cash reserves, once the cash reserves are gone, countries will start selling stocks of corps that where previously entirely owned by a single players investment funds. something that the GM have always stated they didn't like

Andy did strongly suggest recently to buy shares while you still can, i've taken that to heart,

Previous Cash Investment Fund 52,505,609M SC$ Total Investment FundCash
New Contributions by the Population 6,142M SC$ Contributions to the Investment Fund
Dividend from Private Investments 30,725M SC$ Dividend Income
Income from Selling Shares 0M SC$ Income from Fund Shares Sold This Month
Cost of Buying Shares 0M SC$ Cost of Shares Bought This Month
Payout to Workers Last Month (0.70% Per Year Of Total Fund Assets) -60,288M SC$ Amount Paid Out By The Fund
Current Cash Investment Fund 52,482,188M SC$ Fund Total Cash

Assets
Current Cash Investment Fund 52,482,188M SC$ Fund Total Cash
Investment Fund Investments 50,814,120M SC$ Value of the Fund Share Portfolio
Total Funds Assets 103,296,308M SC$ Total Investment Fund

however, their really isn't enough stocks out their for more than a handful of players to save their IFs, its first come, first serve

this does leave some other opportunities, and even further concepts that previously weren't realistic, become so

on a positive note, the IFs pay outs, have increased my countries income tax by about 20B a game month, further, it has also dramatically increased pop contributions to country supplies, i don't think that i'm really "loosing," money, as it is being forced out of my investment fund, as the GM move the sim-stock market to more resemble how they envision it.

i'm just hoping that this doesn't take years, and maybe in 12-18 months we'll see a reduction of pay outs, so that we can enjoy the revamped feature.

This makes no sense. Might as well not have such a thing if there is no hope for them to make more than they pay out. Granted my interest in them is not as much as others, but this is annoying. I see no real point in it. If you don't want them investing in certain corporations because it makes them less public like or whatever, then simply prevent them from investing in such a manner. There is no need for this, none...

you know rage, try to take a helicopter view, this is a good change, that has its own challenges, yet adds a depth to game play that wasn't their before

i've been trying to not actually spell it out, but long term, this adds something to the game that players have been begging for, for a long time.

give it a couple years

Currently, countries are doing quite good with this added income.
I see no complaints yet.

We should not mix all issues here as the restructuring of the investment funds was a plan long time ago and has nothing to do with ideas about public or real public corporations.

there are currently two related problems.

1. Most funds have a huge amount of cash and some investments in shares.
2. The stock market has many buying orders that cannot be fulfilled and no more can be placed as the max percentage of share are already requested. (you cannot ask for 20B shares when the corporation has 1.6B shares in total).

The amount of money in all funds is much higher than the value of all the public corporations, many times over.

after years of cash growth, funds may now see some cash declines while the population is enjoying higher income.

(Don't forget: if the value of the fund declines, so will the contribution to the investors).

If and when some funds will sell some of their portfolio because they need cash, others will purchase these shares.

we would like to see a higher proportion of shares in the funds.
Currently it is very far from moving from where it is.

Sometimes I need things spelled out

That said, how can an investment fund grow, if it pays out more than it makes? Does it not at some point simply die and defeat its intended purpose? Should they not pay slightly less than they make or at least stop paying altogether, when they are nearly depleted of free cash?
Is this the way it works now and I simply misunderstood?

In my main country I tried to invest in stocks that pay consistent dividends, selling the shares of those would not be a smart move for the fund. I imagine others are much the same. Some take this change a lot more seriously than I. If I recall Aries spoke at length against this, some time back. The change seems to trivialize the time and effort some folks have spent on growing their IFs. While my own fund that I lovingly managed in the beginning isn't that big at a mere 14 trillion, it does annoy me that I cannot make its income greater than its pay out. So I have about 9 trillion in cash and 5 trillion in shares. I don't mind the IF paying out more depleting the cash, what I mind is the selling of stocks because of an arbitrary payout setting I cannot control. If the fund sells the shares it loses the income from dividends. It seems nonsensical to do that and I should be able to control it, it is MY IF.

Andy,

I'm not sure if this is the perfect place to put this comment but it is relevant.

There are many corps and public corps, that have market values that do not seem to be based at all on their earning power or their asset values. Many corps are tremendously overvalued. If stock prices were more in-line with the companies performance and assets, the share market would be more active.

Just looking at the Gamemaster Corps, 98% of them are tremendously overvalued and not at all worth buying, whereas there are virtually none that are deeply discounted in value, which might be typical in a free market based system. Even firms with huge debt that are essentially worthless, have huge "Market Values". This, I believe, could use some review.

Cheers.

Rage

The assumption that it trivializes the fund was as you can clearly see wrong.
We explained but is was not read.

you will increase your income from the fund if you invest the 9T (or 8T) in shares.

why do you sit on the cash.
cash does not earn you anything.

If you do, the income will jump.

Perival

The market value of corporations is mainly based on their profit after tax in the past "period".

Try doing some computations.
take the net profit of a corporation and multiply by 2190 (number of game months in a real year).
you will see that the profit is several times the value of the corporation. (if the tax is sky high, may be lower but then the country makes a huge profit too).

now look at GE or a different DOW corporation.
The profit per year is probably 5% of its value.


When someone makes an investment, buying corporations and expects a profit, what should the profit be.
I invest 1T. what should I earn each game month (4 hours)?

Actually, if you find the gm corps that are suffering from long term worker shortages, you can scoop them up for a couple pennies a share and nurture them into 700-900B SC$ corps. I've done it with air transport.

yeah I've found investing in growth stocks to be far more profitable then investing in stocks that pay out dividends.... if only my skill in the stock market of SC translated to real life

Andy,

Thanks for the reply. I hadn't seen 2190 months of profit data listed anywhere, if you could point out quickly where that is, it would be helpful.

It seemed to me that share prices in corps we run as players adjust much faster than a multiple of 2190 months earnings would suggest. Perhaps it's different for non-player run corps.

Thanks

The 2190 months profit can be computed by multiplying the month profit by 2190.

the value you will get is much higher than the market value of the corporation.

what I am trying to say is that if we want the corporations in the game to deliver the same percentage of profit as in the real world, their values should be much higher.

we did not think it is desirable to have that and compute the profit based on a shorter period than 2190 game months and it results in a higher PE ratio than in fact exist in these corporations.

Example:
Imagine a corporation produces 500M in profit after tax, and its market value if 400B.

The profit over entire year is 0.5B x 2190 = 1045B.
This is 2.5 times it value.
the PE ratio is: 400B/1045B is about 0.4!

so we have to fix it and do not multiply the profit by 2190 but use a smaller number and end up at PE between 10 and 60 depending on the profitability. Bad corporations not taken into account.

This is more reasonable and closer to the numbers in the real world.

The corporation is of course even more profitable.
the value is based on profit AFTER tax.
the corporation makes much more and contributes to the country.

Andy

Just something you might want to check out regarding buying share in IPO Gamemaster CEO's
If you check my CEO "Melcorean Producers Inc" on LU.

You can see i have been trying to buy game master IPO corps but very few are going though or the buy orders dissapper next month, If you check the logs you can see i even offered the max amount over market price and nothing.
Also i had a corp called "Melcorean Gas" it was 25% CEO controlled but now the Game master corp owns 75% of the corp? I didn't think the GM CEO invested in corps?

You were correct Andy. I invested 3/4 of my IF's free cash, leaving some for pay outs, and it is making more than it pays out. Though if the Percentage Of Fund Payout Per Year of 0.70% increases much of any, like you have been talking about, that will not remain true.

Dear Andy,

Please take into consideration that Country controled public corporations can be damaged and destroyed by earthquakes too.

To me , IF is the best part of playing simcountry. I love most of the new changes but i came to realise that the current changes are good and bad.

Since market value is tied to P/e ratio to some extand, and payments are based on market value of total funds, @0.7% some of my funds are breaking even , while some are making small monthly profits.

1.2% payout is a bit too hardcore for funds without 100's of T already.

Maybe the solution is to modulate the payout according to the ratio of total funds vs pop.

cheers

why are private corps immune to earthquakes and war.... its bullshit... those goddamn elitist CEOs get whatever they want including andys soul

jack ceos bareilly get to do anything besides building corps and they barely make money

Private Corps are not immune to Earthquakes. This goddamn Elitist CEO has had more than one shutdown by Earthquakes. It messes up my naming convention for a bit, most annoying.