Pissing Contest

your lists of costs for health supplies, amounts to 55-60% of the total cost, leaving allot of room for the effect of salaries.

but have it your way, this is what i meant above about "arguing tell you win," i've made many, clear and valid points, that you casually dismiss, because it does not suit you. so, i'll let you carry on, and i'll continue to dominate in profit

how ever, later, when i have more time, i'll address the corp material question.

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

Your first post does not take into consideration that there was a difference of over $1B in material costs. Your comment remains absurd. -Aries<!-/Quote-!>

but before i do, i'd like to hear your explanation, why is their such a difference? and how does 1B difference in raw material, have more weight than 2B difference in wages?

its seem to me, the stronger, larger, cost cut, would be the most likely reason for better profit? and it is, but lets see if you get this right! so far your batting zero.

Casually dismiss? I have shined the spotlight through your smoke and mirrors show. Either go learn how the finance page works or find someone else to fool with your finance page shenanigans. Players can choose to learn from the player who actually adds cash and assets at a clip exceeding $20 Trillion/day or a player who has learned just enough to dress up their Profit & Loss page.

tools, as you'd say, with the gauges, calibers, and measurements we have, everything points to me paying less for more, but you continue with what your doing, by all means.

and how about an explanation for the raw material costs, you brought it up twice now, i can talk about it, and explain it, your smart enough to get it, but i think that your actually going to miss.

but you get first crack, with your imaginary, and invisible measuring device.

I know how you do the raw materials costs. I will explain it when you tell me why your conclusions on data have been as blatantly wrong as your statement linking the entirety of government costs to salaries. Do I even need to recap how wrong your conclusions have been?

Your rock in the water comment should have considered which pond you were throwing the stone into.

You said transportation costs were an example of a salary difference:

"so my lower salaries, largely compensates for my higher consumption quality, in the case of government costs.

This becomes more evident with we look closely at the transportation index."

Until you dialed it back (who does draw a salary for transportation anyway...):

"90-95% of the total trans cost is material."

You said high quality consumption adds to government costs but missed an opportunity to reiterate you buy materials reflected in Profit & Loss at a lower quality:

"my 324 overall consumption Quality raises government costs"

Paying more for things like electric power can create additional cost but has no affect on the Profit & Loss page that you continually site.

You gave hospitals as an example of savings before admitting that material costs account for most of the difference.

You would have more credibility if you were complete and honest in your conclusions on data before one needs to post to point out your inaccuracies and misleading comments. How do you do raw materials for corps? It is more dress-up. You sure you want me to point this out?

Oh, you cited Business 101 earlier. I took that course. I also took more advanced business courses, Business Law, several economics courses, a marketing course, and an accounting class. I am more of a tech guy but I enjoy the business stuff. I can hold my own but if you want to show me something that is cool. I am still waiting to see something neat and shiny that retains its glow after you tell me about it.

aries, this argument was over before it began

i of course wanted to make a point, i did that, but i was also aware, before i started this, you would not agree with a thing i said. this has been a constant event for over 6 months.

my arguments are valid, based on legitimate sim-stats, that all players use to measure the success of their countries. and i have demonstrated the relation of salaries, and high and low quality country supplies effect on country production, costs, and profit.

how ever, the discussion is now concluded, i will not be dragged into an argument, that will only continue until it is undignified. but you are welcome to post anything you want.

so, are we gonna discuss my raw material costs? or not? it was your point, not mine, but i'd be happy to discuss it. ironically, its something you do better than me, when i looked at it closer, i realized i shouldn't be doing it, or doing it another way

I believe there is a large segment of players who simply delve deep enough into the game to have a pretty pet country. They upload a pretty president pic, they make their map nice, and spend plenty of time coming up with cute names for cities and towns.

Players who stop at the Profit & Loss page and don't truly understand it. Players who are content with making that page nice. They are one step past the first group. If you will be their champion, so be it.

Me? I often don't bother to change my presidents picture. I have countries that still display the same name and pic they had when another player owned them, before I conquered it. I don't draw pretty maps, I go for function. I make decisions on government policy based on what nets the most assets, not what makes some select stats nice.

For those who truly would be interested in accumulating assets. For those who want to actually afford to deploy and maintain massive military forces one day. I will look to teach those guys. I will call out this select stat/dress-up silliness that pops up when I attempt to do so. My results are clear. No player, on any world, accumulates assets in the ballpark I do with econ.

Players, choose your path..

and about the corp raw materials? that you brought up?

also, aries, are you actually throwing space trade up for econ discussion?

space station trade would not exist, except for me

i am Josias Jorvick, the Orbiter, master of space

something you know full well.

I will admit, we both do well there. Indeed, my income there has been useful for my investments in pop on LU. I think there is a bit more potential if the word gets out a bit. I continually point out to new players the benefits of looking to space and direct trade to get value of their coins rather than retrieving a paltry $30 billion each.

true to the thread theme....

i once had a player declare war on me, with the #1 and 2 war countries here on LU, against my 2 80M cash cows, that had 20 I-wings, and 10 H-wngs each.

but in the 48 hour waiting period, i moved so much hardware from WG, that it became a 1-2 versus 3-4 war, i was ready to duke it out for several days, as i felt the future of LU was at stake. that the other guy, who originally saw an econ prize, sued for peace. i excepted, because it meant i won with out a shot


also, you where their in chat, as it gave me the momentum to defeat my greatest rival, and tell Wendy to not let the door hit her, where the good lord split her...

it was epic, but in the past.

lets talk about the future of space trade, what do you have to say?

Space trade is going to be driven by demand. The expensive nature of docks remains a limitation for buyers and sellers. I'd like to see a way where either the game or players can remove this cost for buyers.

If a seller could chose to, say, label a dock they own a "buyers dock", that would help. Perhaps, if they have a "buyers dock" available, anyone who buys their goods and lacks their own space could use this area (if totally empty). Only one buyer could use the dock at a time. To encourage the buyer to move their goods, a lease would kick in after 24 hours should they not empty the dock, making it available for the next buyer.

interesting, not sure i'm for or against that, from an outside view, ok, but who buys the docks and offers them? you know the GM wont, if they would, then why wouldn't they just lower the price?

seriously, until it becomes more popular, docks, and rental should be 1/5 what they are now. in a couple of years, when the game popularity improves, return them to the current prices... but jeese the cost now is just to much

i say that, while i own over 40, that i've made from space trade. i know the potential is their, the cost is holding us back.

You obviously have the ability and I would purchase a few docks just to use in that way. It offers enough of an incentive as a seller that it just may be worth it. At the same time, it eases new buyers into space trade that benefits this game feature overall for everyone.

and when i say the cost is to much, GAME MASTERS, i've proven it

but aries, i'd need to undue something we agreed on, to expand, and we agreed on that, on my side, because i don't want the daily chore... i can wait for February

where you brag about your income, my income is sufficient to undercut your space prices, for over a year, before i run out. and by then, i'd probably be able to find another partner, that i can pass a few econ tricks to, (like i'd use them up in this thread,) this is not a challenge, rather, a call.

i posted on the trade thread, that basically i needed help keeping up with space trade. and you bought in. i was happy, we where once in the same fed, you where a newb in an elite fed that rallied around me in a time of trouble. i saw you start in cervus, i was joyed

then when i let my sales go, i noticed you raising prices. it irritated me. i'd sacrificed allot to generate business, i noticed that once my prices reached a certain level, my customer numbers multiplied. how ever, i noticed you raising prices, to the max you'd think players would pay

in reality, 80% cost, should be enough, but the game just isn't ready for that. so i under cut you. and we continued a price war... a newb that was interested in renting my dock, to sell PB, so he could buy SB, found the price war... well, i haven't heard from him since.

essentially, their is allot of potential, but being to aggressive, will ruin that, as much as the GM's high buy in cost.

That post hit a little of everywhere. Guess I will respond to a few.

1. We both could renew a price war. We both could survive one. Neither of us could "win" a price war.

2. Did you not make this thread to brag? You started by highlighting your finance rank and Profit & Loss which I let go until you reiterated a statement you made on my teaching thread that has proved assuredly false.

3. You said:

"i noticed that once my prices reached a certain level, my customer numbers multiplied."

So yes, we have both experimented with prices. Why would my experimentation make you irritated?

the first 2 are stand alone statements, that don't need to be qualified, or addressed,

but, i put allot into making space work, dropping prices until i had enough customers to pass on some of the business. i was watching you take advantage of a handful of players, while ruining the whole thing. so basically, i handed something over to you, that you where going to just ruin, ya, i was irritated.

I can assure you, no puppies were harmed.

But seriously, if we are both in space and selling something, how could I take advantage of anyone? The core issue remains the same though. Particularly, the lack of buyers exacerbated by the cost of entry. More buyers would lead to more sellers and eventually a more stable market environment than one with a shortage of both buyers and sellers.

which is my point, raising prices, discourages buyers

since space was created, players have complained about docking costs, and back then, you could spend the night raiding C3s, convert the cash to GC and get a dock or 2. now, thats impossible, but the GM consider the potential income, worth the buy in cost.

this is partially true, my 40+ docks, amount to more than 8000GC in sales, all from space. this does not count what i've spent on professionals, registration, and pop.

but the bottom line fact, is that their isn't enough volumn, to justify the buy in for more than a couple of players.

Working on something constructive. Just tried to put together what I know about government costs. This is my worksheet of data. Worked quick to gather everything in the same game month. Have anything to add to this?

Total Government Costs 254,662.91M SC$ (From P&L)

Social Security Costs 36,508.75M SC$ (From P&L)

Social Security Quality Index 88.11
Current Social Security Percentage of Low Level Worker Salary 73 %
Yearly Social Security Payments 13,738 SC$
Number of retired People 18,254,112
Number of disabled People 6,899,871
Number of unemployed People 6,356,626

General Cost of Government 60,889.49M SC$ (From P&L)

Health Costs 59,017.79M SC$ (From P&L)

Known Material Costs $20.85 Billion
Salary Costs $16.92 Billion
Unfound Costs $21.23 Billion

Medical Equipment 12,419.65M SC$ 201 (From Spending)
8,360,700 units (From Trade)
Medical Materials 2,566.77M SC$ 195 (From Spending)
769,735 units (From Trade)
Pharmaceutical Products 5,858.15M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
251,913 units (From Trade)

Nurses 4,993,356 at 16,640 1,387/month $6.93 Billion
Doctors 1,620,246 at 43,200 3,600/month $5.83 Billion
Senior Doctors 928,326 at 53,760 4,480/month $4.16 Billion

Education Costs 36,968.88M SC$ (From P&L)

Known Material Costs $14.05 Billion
Salary Costs $16.86 Billion
Unfound Costs $6.06 Billion

Teachers 6,613,062 at 24,320 2,027/month $13.4 Billion
University Teachers 1,248,450 at 33,280 2,773/month $3.46 Billion

(This is using data from Eduction Costs in docs)
Schools 70,508
Services (per year) 2250 units per year 187.5/month 13.2 million units
Books etc. 420 units per year 35/month 2.47 million units
Other products 210 units per year 17.5/month 1.2 million units

High Schools 46,358
Services (per year) 2310 units per year 192.5/month 8.9 million units
Books etc. 420 units per year 35/month 1.6 million units
Other products 210 units per year 17.5/month 811k units

Universities 614
Services (per year) 42000 units per year 3500/month 2.1 million units
High-tech services 7800 units per year 650/month 399k units
Books etc. 21000 units per year 1750/month 1.1 million units
Other products 7200 units per year 600/month 368k units

Total monthly use (All Schools)

Services 24.3 million units 193 qua 191 market price $9 Billion
HTS 399k units 194 qua 344 market price $266 Million
Books etc. 5.17 million units 200 qua 462 market price $4.78 Billion
other 2.38 million units $6 Billion?

Transportation Costs 11,698.42M SC$ (From P&L)

Material Costs $10.24 Billion
Unfound Costs $1.46 Billion

Road Maintenance 4,100.70M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
384,700 units (From Trade)
Traintracks maintenance 2,476.06M SC$ 199 (From Spending)
153,900 units (From Trade)
Water maintenance 3,659.50M SC$ 192 (From Spending)
776 units (From Trade)


Defense Costs 49,579.58M SC$ (From P&L)

Material Costs $35.96 Billion
Salary Costs $.35 Billion
Unfound Costs $13.27 Billion


Airforce Maintenance 11,319.39M SC$ 300 (From Spending)
167,999
Def Weapons Maintenance 4,132.54M SC$ 305 (From Spending)
81,615
Military Bases Maintenance 3,066.15M SC$ 199 (From Spending)
1,909 units (From Trade)
Navy Vessels Maintenance 1.18M SC$ 193 (From Spending)
16 units (From Trade)
Off Weapons Maintenance 1,358.00M SC$ 318 (From Spending)
35,641 units (From Trade)
Aircraft Fuel 5,276.10M SC$ 192 (From Spending)
2,986,905 units (From Trade)
Military Supplies 3,189.89M SC$ 199 (From Spending)
2,416,290 units (From Trade)
Military Services 12,863.38M SC$ 205 (From Spending)
16,268,081 units (From Trade)

Drafted Soldiers 0

Drafted Officers 130,060 at 32,640 2,720/month $353.6 Million

For Reference Only. These are not supposed to draw salary.

Professional Soldiers 1,175,564 at 16,000 1,333/month $1.57 Billion

Professional Officers 284,573 at 32,640 2,720/month $774 Million


Additional Reference From Spending Page

High Tech Services 1,695.80M SC$ 194 (From Spending)
2,547,128 units (From Trade)
Services 13,737.53M SC$ 193 (From Spending)
37,351,520 units (From Trade)
Books And Newspapers 10,489.32M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
11,353,785 units (From Trade)
Construction 29,972.88M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
53,361,777 units (From Trade)
Household Products 11,693.03M SC$ 200 (From Spending)
2,356,976 (From Trade)


Conclusions thus far:

1. Social Security and Transportation Costs seem the most straightforward.

2. Government Costs are the most mysterious and likely mostly out of control of players, short of running a smaller empire.

3. Education and Defense Costs seem mostly accounted for. Education 85%. Defense 75%

4. Ammo cost usage does not appear to be figured into Military Costs on P&L page. Their inclusion would far exceed the listed figure.

5. Health costs likely uses additional, less obvious, materials. 35% of its cost I am unable to reliably conclude.

6. Household products are likely used in one, or more, of these costs, as they appear in government spending on the Spending/Finance page.

7. It cannot be known if the Profit & Loss page values uses materials at the same value as the Spending Finance page. This could account for some differences in cost between the two pages.

8. "Other Products" use for eduction does not specify which product is used.

Just occurred to me that Gasoline is missing. Units use it, so it is likely a component of Defense costs.

for the professionals, i found in the game news that it says they do, draw salaries.

schools and hospitals use more than nurse and teachers and such, LLW and HTX, did you add those in?

Thanks.

Hospitals 2883

Each / Total / Monthly Income / Total

310 LLWs 893,730 1333.33 $1.20 Billion
280 MLWs 807,240 1706.67 $1.38 Billion
230 HLWs 663,090 2080 $1.38 Billion
240 LLMs 691,920 2506.67 $1.73 Billion
150 MLMs 432,450 3360 $1.45 Billion
75 HLMs 216,225 4213.33 $0.91 Billion
12 EXEs 34,596 9066.67 $0.31 Billion
122 HTEs 351,726 3360 $1.18 Billion
26 HTSs 74,958 5146.67 $0.39 Billion
7 HTXs 20,181 10400 $0.21 Billion

Total $10.14 Billion

Updated Health

Health Costs 59,017.79M SC$ (From P&L)

Known Material Costs $20.85 Billion
Salary Costs $27.06 Billion
Unfound Costs $11.11 Billion


Schools 70508

Each / Total / Monthly Income / Total

8 LLW 564,064 1333.33 $0.75 Billion
12 MLW 846,096 1706.67 $1.44 Billion
1 MLM 70,508 3360 $0.24 Billion
Total $2.43 Billion

High Schools 46358

Each / Total / Monthly Income / Total

8 LLW 370,864 1333.33 $0.49 Billion
17 MLW 788,086 1706.67 $1.35 Billion
1 MLM 46,358 3360 $0.16 Billion
Total $2.00 Billion

Universities 615

Each / Total / Monthly Income / Total

450 LLW 276,750 1333.33 $0.37 Billion
440 MLW 270,600 1706.67 $0.46 Billion
300 HLW 184,500 2080 $0.38 Billion
500 LLM 307,500 2506.67 $0.77 Billion
320 MLM 196,800 3360 $0.66 Billion
215 HLM 132,225 4213.33 $0.56 Billion
20 EXE 12,300 9066.67 $0.11 Billion
31 HTE 19,065 3360 $0.06 Billion
13 HTS 7,995 5146.67 $0.04 Billion
4 HTX 2,460 10400 $0.03 Billion
Total $3.44 Billion

Total $7.87 Billion

Updated Education

Education Costs 36,968.88M SC$ (From P&L)

Known Material Costs $14.05 Billion
Salary Costs $24.73 Billion
Unfound Costs $0 Billion

Found it in game news:

Professional soldiers and officers that are used in the army receive the same salary as the existing soldiers and officers. In case some of the professional soldiers or officers are not used in the army, they are not paid.


Professional Soldiers in Mobile Units 187,500
Professional Soldiers in Other Units 844,029

Total 1,031,529 @1333.33 $1.38 Billion

Professional Officers in Mobile Units 89,500
Professional Officers in Other Units 195,073

Total 284,573 @2720 $.78 Billion
Total $2.16 Billion

Updated Defense

Defense Costs 49,579.58M SC$ (From P&L)

Material Costs $35.96 Billion
Salary Costs $2.51 Billion
Unfound Costs $11.11 Billion


Health + Education + Transportation + Defense

Material Costs $81.10 Billion
Salary Costs $54.30 Billion
Unfound Costs $23.68 Billion

Conclusions

1. Health is a lot closer to accounted for. If household products were confirmed to be a health expense, it would fit right in there.

2. This account for all Education Costs now.

3. Still missing some defense costs. Gasoline is likely one component.

I thought we were drinking single malt Scotch and then seeing how far we could launch a stream.

Boy is my face red.