JMR32/FarmerBob

Love it! Never did the cattle (family were dairy primarily, had a few steers but always sent them to the local butcher)but did get to watch a couple of hogs. Too young to participate in that, although they let me help with the annual castration of same! And got to wield the hatchet on quite a few chickens.

You're right about much of the younger generation around the world, if things went poof a lot of them would have no clue.

Do I have to bring my own silverware?

'Til next time, Bob.

Well, now that my work is done for the day, murdering an innocent bovine, I can get back to important matters.

Din't mean to get snotty in the above post. I was thinking of the green faces at watching an old school slaughter, skinning, gutting, and butchering taking place. Not to imply incompetence on anyone's part. It is not for the squeamish. Especially since we are wet-aging the meat. That means no .22 in the ear. We tie her up, hold her down, and slit the throat. For those who may be reading this and find that barbaric, it's the only way to remove the blood from the animal efficiently. It has to remain alive long enough to bleed out. Sorry, but that's just real life.

Robert. I must confess to scoping your country on GR and I have a question. By your choice of name for your capital, would you by any chance live next door to a major supply depot? Another naval one nearby? And an Army institution of higher education not too far down the road?

If so, I have been through your town. Way back when, I was at that Army school for a time and we were encouraged to take a tour of the logistics operation a few exits down the turnpike. One morning that we had off, three of us did just that. It was an interesting facility, and we stopped for lunch on the main street at a little irish type pub/restaurant that was next to one of those old fashioned, single screen movie theaters. Does this sound like your town? Sorry that I don't recall any of the names, but I remember the time we had of it getting out of there. The genius redleg who was driving us decided to take another route out of town, not the way we had come in, and we ended up in some ungodly traffic which led to some other highway that we could only enter going the opposite direction that we wanted. We ended up driving around one of the most inane highway systems I've seen until we got on a correct interstate headed back to the school. The 15 minute trip in was a 2 hour ordeal getting out! What is going on with your area, Robert? For such a small community, I have never seen midday traffic like that. Has it gotten any better?

The town itself seemed nice enough though. Cute little houses in those 50's brick style with big old trees lining the roadside. Very picturesque from what I recall.

If this is indeed your home and I'm not just getting senile, may I ask if you are taking advantage of your rural community's opportunities for more economical food supplies? The 15month old my wife is processing right now cost me $110 as a calf at auction and I paid my neighbor $200 for a year's feed and care. That's 300 bucks for what will be around 400lbs of prime beef. My neighbor sells his 2 year olds for only $400-450. I doubt the prices down your way are much higher. The process is actually very simple. You only need 2 knives, one very sharp and one medium so, and an 18inch hacksaw. Nearly every farm has a bobcat nowadays from which you can hang the carcass for skinning, gutting, and quartering. Only takes around 1 1/2 hours to do. If you think you might want to give it a try, let me know and I can post exact instructions for you. Really, I could talk you through the whole process in a few paragraphs. We do 2 a year in addition to the Party one and probably save $4000-5000 on beef. Poultry and pork aren't quite as economical to do yourself, however.

Well, enough meddling on my part, but the offer stands.

Be sure to let me know if I got the town right.

More to follow. My manliness is apparently required for some bonesawing at the moment.

Bob

The pub was Coakley's, the theater was the West Shore. BTW, the theater still sells tickets for 4 dollars, if you don't mind second run. They usually lag 3-4 months behind on the movies. And bingo, you've nailed me again. The logistics depot used to be the Chinook repair depot for the US, but they transferred it out and brought a section of the naval depot over to replace the Chinooks.

The traffic situation was probably a result of change of shift at the Army depot. My Dad was based out of there, and although we live 5 minutes away it would take him over an hour to get home. They did finally get smart and install a series of traffic signals at strategic locations which has alleviated a portion, but not all of the difficulties.

It's not improving much, as our county has one of the fastest growing pops in the state. Many people from the "Beltway" are moving in because relative housing costs are substantially lower. What would run a mil around DC/Baltimore goes for about 350k here. With light rail being 40 miles down the road in Maryland, the commute time isn't that much greater than driving from the beltway area.

Absolutely am taking advantage of local situations. Don't do it myself, but a fellow who was a year ahead of me in school operates a farm just 2 miles away, and I purchase a half per year from him at VERY competitive pricing. The deep freeze does the trick, although I had to play hell last winter when we had a major ice storm. Lost electric for 3 days.

Damn, I'm out of time. I'm due at Julie's in 20 minutes. Will return later.

Bob

Okay. I'm really chuckling over the turn the conversation took in the last couple posts.
I'm envisioning a member who also belongs to PETA having a breakdown right about now!

Another probable cause of the jam you ran into was because at the time there was only one access road onto post, and that was during the period when you actually had to stop at the guard shack and verify your identity. They have since added an access road at the back section of the post also.

Progress. When my folks first had the house built after coming from Japan, I could take my Brittany spaniel out the back door and walk for an entire hour before running into humanity.

There were meadows, a pond, even a walnut grove whose caretaker had long ago gone. There were pheasant, rabbit, deer, even red fox to be seen. The first couple years I did some small game and pheasant hunting.

Now if I spit real hard I can hit the property of one of the houses in the development behind me. Still have the small critters, but one of the neighbors had a vendetta against red fox and hunted them mercilessly, so they are all gone. Used to upset me to no end. The guy didn't do anything with the animal, he left it lie where he had killed it. And he did no real hunting, he just had a thing about fox. Hunting is good if you're going to use the meat or the fur, or if it is a "pest" animal, but I just don't like folks who kill because they can.

Still have the deer. They come down from the mountain at night and sleep in my backyard because they love my pear tree and apple tree. I don't mind sharing, it's kind of neat to look out the bedroom window and see the buck and his 4 or 5 doe (and their fawns in season) just kicking back snoozing. On top of that, I never need to buy any fertilizer for the grass!

All right, I still want to hear about your continuing adventures, so time permitting, do it to it.

Oh, I did accept the assignment in Arizona. They work a voucher type system, I pay up front and they reimburse. Don't think they've been on the road recently, 30 bucks a day is the cap. But it's a travel opp, and I convinced Julie to come along to keep me company. She's getting ready for another school year, so the summer is rapidly fading away. Three more weeks and she's back to the grind. We leave Saturday, so things may be a little sporadic for a bit. That's probably the one thing that I have a hard time dealing with in the game, the rapidly running clock. Wasn't much of a problem when I went to Bermuda, I had just started the country from scratch, so not hands on managing it was probably better than if I had. But now things have progressed to where if I miss a month it's a lot harder to catch back up. And you can't automate to tell your Presidents to buy 4 elementary schools each month, 1 hospital, and 1.5 times the monthly use of each ammo type. WAAAHHHH! Such a crybaby, jeez.

Hit the keys, don't leave me in suspense about your TWO voluntary trips to that particular Southeast Asian "paradise".

If I smell your barbecue from my house, expect to see me! lol. Used to go to an annual pig roast in a county north of here. Would get 40-50 people, everyone would bring tents, etc. and we'd make a weekend of it. But the owners donated the land to the Boy Scouts about 6 years ago, so don't do that any more. There's just something in the flavor of outdoor cooking that is irresistable.

Bob

Wonderful to hear of your continuing professional progress. Should be a fun trip. I would recommend taking I76 out to I70 to I55 to I44 to US60 to US70 to I25 to I10, but that's just me. LOL I'm sure you can mapquest or whatever, but I'll let you ponder on your trip how I know the way to go off the top of my head.
Hint: It has something to do with my post-post retirement profession.

I liked your home area from what I recall. Carlisle was a neat old town, surrounded with farms. Lots of corn in that region still?

You needn't tell me about developement. The old farm road that winds out our valley is actually congested in the mornings with all the yuppies who've settled out here. And we are RURAL. They have to drive at least an hour to get anywhere they work, I'm sure. Half the people out here must call off in the Winter. We get a bit more snow up here than you Pennsyltuckians.

Lots of whitetail are around here as well and we have no shortage of fox either. My property is posted and I haven't hunted in years. Gina never cared for vennison and I can take it or leave it. During Deer season we can get as many as 50 holed up on the mountainside and I put out feed for them. Not a PETA type, just don't need the meat and don't want yahoos shooting anywhere nearby.

Break Break

Sorry. Minor interruption.

Last week, I got my 11 year old grandson off of the computer for long enough to take a walk with me and the dogs. My Basset scared up a copperhead in some rocks and I got to show him how to catch and kill it. Though we weren't going to actually cook it up, I gutted and skinned it so he could see how it's done. The dogs were happy enough to get the meat. He thought the whole thing was pretty neat. The copperheads are the only creatures here that I will destroy when I find them. Just too dangerous to have around. Kids and dogs don't have the sense to let them be.

Let the PETA folks chew on that.LOL

Don't sweat the game stuff. As long as you're under war protection, you can let things run for a couple of weeks untended.

So what exactly is it that you're reporting on Tuscon?
I seem to recall some billboards advertising some historical sites in the area. Also recall seeing some strange ones for a big green something? Let me know if you find out what that is if you see them.
The heat will be considerable, but it is very dry. No oppressive humidity like the East here. Just remember to hydrate.LOL

I have been thinking about what to say about my 2 Nam tours. Haven't thought about those times in a long while. There's alot that I really don't want to go back to. It's not that anything is overly traumatic, it's merely that much of it just isn't really fit for public discussion like this. I need to work on what I would like to touch upon a little more.

I will see if I can't get something posted before you go on Saturday.

Back to you soon and continue to keep the discussion going on the other thread. I do enjoy when our learned colleagues get motivated enough to contribute to those discussions.

Regards,
Bob

Good to hear from you so quick.

I'll have to ponder in a Sherlockian manner your knowledge of the most efficient route to Tucson. If it were part of your military experience I would say Ft. Huachuca (spelling doesn't seem right). Spent a couple weeks as a youngster there while Dad did whatever he did.

Either way, we won't drive out. Air is the way to go, that way we won't be toast when we arrive. Heck, the 2 hour drive to Philly and back once a month to see my buddy and also Julie's sister about does me in any more! And to think that when I was at Knox I thought nothing of jumping in the car on the Friday of midmonth and eom pay and cruising 10 hours back home to spend Friday night, Sat, and back in the car after church Sunday morning! Age.

Still a decent bit of agriculture around the area, although like most places in the country the family farm is rapidly disappearing. The young are not interested in the amount of work involved for the limited financial benefit. And every time a farmer passes on, the developers are knocking on the next of kin's door right after the funeral to make offers on the land. One of my friends' grandfathers owned 180 acres (just a homestead in Iowa, but a big deal here), and when he passed on it was an immediate bidding war. The property, which had originally been way out of town, was on the edge of town when Mike's grandfather died. The sad end to that story is that one of the children had convinced the old man they would continue to farm it after the old man's passing, so the grandfather left monetary bequests to the rest of the family and left the land to the "asshat". Guy never had any intention of farming the land, and grandfather didn't stipulate that in the will, so one guy became an overnight multimillionaire. And the property is now home to 2 developments, a strip mall, and a church. The court battle dragged on for almost a year, but the bad guys took the battle that time. I've seen it happen way too often after someone who works their entire life to build something dies and the vultures come out of the woodwork.

Back to the discussion. Tangentializing again.

You used the term dogs plural, and mentioned a basset in particular. What other types of dog do you have? Always had a dog growing up. Mostly spaniels, they were my folks favorite. My Brittany was a piece of work. Kept him outside during the day and brought him in at night. That boy could tell the difference between a salesman and a legitimate visitor to the house. Could he bark and snarl! But never bothered the postman or the meter readers or any family friends. Have a Golden retriever now named Caesar. And he thinks he really is. He'll be in heaven while we're away because he'll be over at Julie's parents along with his sister, who belongs to Jul. Saves on kennel fees!

Got a chuckle out of your comment about the heat. I was born in Mesa, although I only spent 3 years of my life there. Had a great-Aunt and Uncle who owned a Harley shop, so went back for fairly frequent visits until they passed on. Still have some cousins out in that neck of the woods. You are right that it's a drier heat, but as I tell everyone who says that to me: 110 is still hot no matter how dry it is! LOL

I was about your grandson's age when my cousins turned me on to rattlesnake hunting on a visit out there. Of course it's more diamondbacks and sidewinders in that neighborhood, but a rattler is a rattler. Actually the meat isn't too bad. I was leery of it at first but came around after tasting it. My parents favorite saying when they wanted me to eat something that I KNEW was going to taste godawful was "go on, it tastes just like chicken!" Yeah, right.

I could go on for a long rant about PETA, but will just say one thing. They have never actually done any farming. Their claim that milking a cow is abusive is a crock. Any animal husbandry person will tell you that a milk cow will die if not milked. That seems a little more abusive to me.

Loads of historical Old West sites in and around Tucson, as well as lots of abandoned silver mines. Although every town had a "Boot Hill" cemetary, the one in Tucson is the most well known and has the graves of some of the most famous and infamous from that period of history.

They have a tourist attraction outside the city which is a reproduction of Tucson as it was back in the day, and reenactors relive gunfights and the whole nine yards. Similar to Williamsburg, VA. The mockup has been used in numerous movies through the years.

Realistically, I could do the research here at home, but the magazine wants photo accompaniment, and that I can't do from home. What they're looking for is an article on how life really was, not the way it was and is portrayed in fiction and film. In reality, the good guys weren't always good, the bad guys not always bad. One example: The gunfight at the OK Corral, memorialized as a duel between the good guys (Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, et al) and the evil Clanton gang, was actually murder. The Clanton's had thrown out their weapons in surrender before the first shot was fired, according to eyewitness accounts. As they came out of hiding Doc Holliday shot them down. The "good guys" then routed out and killed the remaining outlaws.

The only big green anything I know of offhand is the Saguaro cacti, but I'll check out the scene and give you a report.

I can understand fully your reluctance to discuss some of your experiences across the ocean. As a wise General once said "War is Hell." And another wise General said "It's a good thing war is Hell, or we'd get too used to it."

Think I mentioned my Dad served as a Tank Commander in the Korean War. He would talk about all the inane parts, but would not talk about some of the brutality he saw or any details of actual combat. My favorite story of his was how, during one of the fluid periods of the war, his unit found itself with a Chinese unit between them and the rear. The commanding officer of the unit wanted his mail, so he detailed two platoons of tanks to traverse enemy lines (twice) so he could get his "damned Sears and Roebuck catalog". The good news is that in the afteraction report when the situation stabilized that CO was transferred to a "REMF" unit. Dad told it as a humorous tale, but I know now, after doing my time, there wasn't much humor involved in trying to sneak through enemy lines with freakin' tanks.

But apparently Dad was of a mind along with yours. He rotated out, and six months later went right back for a second tour.

Will make an effort on the other thread, I also enjoy reading thoughts of people who have a clue, whether I agree with them or not. There are some pretty impressive people in this community. In an online game? Who woulda thunk it?

will probably abandon the forum for the week we're out there. Since it's onsite, will need to spend a lot of time transposing written notes onto my laptop, and getting some semblance of continuity out of it. Never had an assignment which combines photo and words before. And the article is due Monday the 18th, so not much time to roll it out. And of course we will have to sample the nightlife and restaurants in the area.
I don't do McDonald's when I'm traveling! And Jul wants to cross the border one day. so if you don't hear from me for a bit worry not. As Douglas Mac is alleged to have said "I shall return!"

Bob

Sorry to interrupt you guys' little conversation here, but:

JMR:

"Will make an effort on the other thread, I also enjoy reading thoughts of people who have a clue, whether I agree with them or not. There are some pretty impressive people in this community. In an online game? Who woulda thunk it?"

I'm flattered! *blushes* lol

MM, feel free to jump in if you are so inclined. As Farmer says in an earlier part of this thread, we're just a couple of "old farts" discussing this and that.

Watch your head doesn't get so big you can't get through the door! lol

Robert, Have a productive and enjoyable trip. I will attempt to get something posted while you are away next week. It should be available for your critique upon your return.

Don't forget your sunscreen and spanish dictionary. LOL

Regards,
Bob

Si, senor, gracias. No habla anglais. Vaya con dios, Roberto.

lol it's already too late for that I think JMR

Ok Robert. Here we go. I will try to do this in manageable installments.

Upon completion of BCT, 11B AIT, and Jump School, I was assigned to a line company in one of the Airborne Divisions that wasn't deployed to Nam. A gift from heaven and that noble E7 recruiter who was looking out for me, right?
A rational man would have seen the truth of the situation, but the ignorant boy I was saw things differently.

I found permanent party stateside to be incredibly boring. I was disappointed by how easy my training had been. I was arrogant and cocky.
Stories abounded about how bad "Charlie" was and how dangerous Nam was. If one believed the hype, one would think that no one could possibly survive a years tour, even though the proof was standing right there, telling the war stories. I smelled a lot of Bravo Sierra and was intrigued rather than scared.
Therefore, after a few months, I put my name in for rotation to Vietnam. At the time, one could request to be placed in the individual replacement pool, and as you can imagine, there were never enough volunteers. Everyone from my platoon Sergeant to my Company Commander tried to talk some sense in to me, but in the hubris of my youth, I wasn't having any.

In a few weeks time, I was headed to SouthEast Asia without the faintest idea of what I had gotten myself into. Upon landing "in country", I was faced with a placement interview conducted by a very bored looking E5 who would determine where I would be assigned. Reviewing my 201, he said laconically

"volunteered, huh? If you want to kill gooks, I have just the thing for ya. Ever hear of "lurps"? Those boys are badass and live in the bush. Ya want it?"
In my eloquent ignorance, I shrugged and said "sure."

Thus with same amount of thought I had given my military career to date, none, did I set on the path which would determine the course of the rest of my life.

Part II.

I won't go into detail about to which unit I was assigned or LRRPs in general. There are quite a few memoirs published by former Rangers, SF troopers, and veterans of the other recon units. The tactics were all much the same as were the missions. I doubt my experiences were very different from anyone else's. We were small teams that went into Charlie's backyard to hunt. Our job was to remain invisible until we chose not to be and the Vietnam LRRPs were very good at their jobs. Specifically, due to my size, I was the natural choice to "hump the pig." Our team primarily conducted ambushes on small groups of VC or occasionally NVA in our AO. In military terms, we were tasked with the interdiction of lines of supply and communication in remote areas beyond the operational range of conventional forces.

I will share, however, my impressions and life lessons gained from this time as well a few anectdotes of personal significance.

Firstly, the individuals with whom I shared nearly every moment of my time that first year were closer than brothers. The six men of a LRRP must trust each other implicitly and function as one. We knew everything about each other from family to personal quirks. Never before or since have I been as close to a group of friends. Our TL was a 21 year old E6, and the rest of us were just 18-19 year old kids. We humped, sweated, fed mesquitos, ate, slept, swore, fantasized about round eyed women, got drunk, fought, killed, and bled together as a family. I hated and loved every minute of that time.

Secondly, our team was a good one. We quickly gained a reputation for being deadly, but more importantly, very lucky. In that first tour, we lost no one. Though some of us were "dinged" several times, our team remained intact. That was rare in LRRPs. Casualties were higher in those units than the average and more than a few teams went out and simply never returned.

I will mention that I got my wife's favorite scar on this tour. A B40 rocket fragment sliced open my right arm at the bicep. It was stiched up and bandaged in the field and went untreated for several days. The resulting scar looks just like the Nike swoosh. It starts mid bicep next to my "worm" and curves across 8 inches to the triceps. Gina always loved it.LOL Too bad the rest of mine aren't nearly so pretty.

At the end of our year long tour, four of us volunteered for another. The other two were not cowards or letting us down in any way. They were married guys who had done their time and more than earned their ticket home, but the rest of us would remain together for the time being.

On to the big picture lessons.

First and foremost, I learned this important fact

War sucks.

There is nothing glorious or heroic about it. Even a lifetime and several more combat experiences later, I cannot find anything good to say about what happens when human beings decide to kill each other en masse.

There are no innocents.

Only victims of the same madness.

And in the world we live in, it still remains an essential part of the human condition.

But for those who then and now would paint the American military with the same brush as our adversaries, I have the unfortunate memories of reality to expose the great lie of their views.

I saw death in all its forms. That which was brought to civilians through carelessness, incompetence, or simple indifference on our part.
Women and children who wanted nothing more than to live their lives died for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That which we inflicted with cold calculation and deliberation on our enemy, uniformed and not.

But I will never, NEVER, forget that which I saw done to a small hamlet by a group of VC cadre who caught the village headman playing both sides of the street. I won't recount the smallest detail here. I can't put into words what happened to those people and have no desire to do so.
But, I will say that nothing I witnessed or ever heard of occuring to civilians as a result of American actions can compare to what I saw that day.
It was done deliberately, methodically, and for no other reason than the politics of the day by sane individuals who would be considered heroes to their cause.

When I see America compared to those we fight by those who haven't been there to witness the reality, I only wish I could take them back to that place in my mind.

Enough for now.

To momentarily switch topics, we have 4 dogs at the moment. Three are adopted and one was a present for Gina when she got back from Italy a few years back. We have a Basset named Molly that turned up down the valley last year. Around 5 years old according to the vet. Not long after, we adopted a medium Golden Retriever named Sarah from a local family that was moving. She is 3. Another Shepard mutt was found last fall hanging around a local farm and we took him in. That is Sam and he somewhere around 10. And completing the managerie is a 3lb miniature Maltese I bought for Gina. She is 3 and named Maya. Care to guess who the alpha of the pack is?
LOL

I will get into my second tour shortly, as that year had the most impact on my career. I'm still not comfortable with what I've written. I don't want to go into a lecture on small unit tactics of the war or get into gruesome details of the nature of that sort of combat; but, I feel like I've left out so much that I don't particularly want to get into.
Does that make sense?

I need your feedback.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Bob

Bob, I feel it is important that people who have been through all of that, and experienced, and seen what you have experienced and saw, to recount their stories to others who have been so lucky and privileged, such as myself, to have never had to do what you did.

You may not have to come out and say anything publicly, if you do not feel so inclined, but maybe write a journal and write down some of your experiences. As hard as it may be for you to reveal your inner-most feelings, of everything you have done or saw in war, it is important that you get these things out eventually. Mostly for future generations. The next generation coming, such as my little neice and nephew, who are currently 5 years old, should be taught the horrors of war, so that they would not have as likelyhood of a chance for actually seeing it themselves. Noone deserves that, period!

The more war-vet stories that are published, the more the public may come to hate war with a passion, and would urge their leaders to try to work out differences with other countries in a political fashion, rather than through arms. If was not for people like Anne Frank, Elie Wiesel, and some of the private thoughts of the Japanese admiral who attacked Pearl Harbor, and countless other, nameless soldiers who have written some of these things down, we would have no idea what kind of conditions these people are in during war-time. Wiesel's story is perhaps the most touching one I have ever read. The title: Night, is powerful in itself, and I believe is one of the main forces of people speaking out against atrocities such as Darfur, and Tibet. Even you, FarmerBob, your story, if published, could have an impact on producing negative views towards war in general, and positive views towards the way in which America conducts war compared to other nations.

I find it funny how people keep talking about a possible war between China and the USA, but I just do not see that as a possiblity in any kind of future at all, and I thank God every day for that. I can see a few, smaller wars conducted more on a regional scale in order to depose brutal dictators who are mad-men, but to wage a war between any of the major nations of the world, who are either stable, or are in the the process of stablizing is completely mad in itself.

China has been improving for the better part of a decade now, the people are slowly, but surely beginning to become more liberal in their views. They are slowly getting more freedoms with each passing year. Still does not excuse the tortures, and killings, and unjust jailings that are going on, but at least it is improving. I am still sceptical on the things that are being said about China in the Olympics, but I have known about all the improvements going on in China, even when I was in HS.

Like I have said, I for one, am very grateful towards people such as yourself that is willing (even if a little naive) to go war so that someone who may be a coward, again, such as myself, would not have to.

Even IF I wanted to sign up for the military (I tried getting into the army after highchool), they would'nt let me, because I have screwed up my ankle quite a bit. The doc said, the last time that I busted up my ankle while in college, said the next time I tear those ligaments, I would be walking with a cane for the rest of my life. I broke them both various times while playing sports, such as baseball (my twins fault) and football (again, my twins fault, lol!), and basketball (my fault that time....kinda...).Anyways, that is a pretty long story. I will save it for another time....maybe...

But yeah, I think you should at least write your Vietnam experiences down, even if it is in a journal. That way your not keeping anything in. And maybe you would decide to have it published someday, and in case you do have the urging to get it out in public, you'll already have it down.

Thank you for the kind words, Michael.

I should elabroate, however, on the seeming contradiction of my views.

I have seen the carnage and suffering we wreak upon each other and have indeed learned to hate war. That said, I know that the only way to avoid war is to prepare vigorously for it. That is a very old aphorism, but it remains so because of its central truth regarding the human condition.

Real evil exists in the world because it exists in the human heart. There will always be those that will act on the negative tendencies in all of us. Or worse, those who will inflict evils in the name of a greater good.

I know why we were in Vietnam. I know what role I played in the conflict. I don't agree with nearly anything in terms of the what, where, when, and how of the manner in which we conducted that conflict.

But I fully comprehend and agree with the WHY.

We drew a line in the sand for the Sino/Soviet Bloc. We let them know that we would spend lives and treasure on the third world battlefield. It had to be done at some point. The alternative was an ever shrinking free world with and expanding and more powerful dictatorial enemy.

This is why I continued to serve for over 20 years further.

War sucks. But they must be fought lest we become slaves to those with the willingness to use force.

I wish I had a more optimistic worldview. Your assessment of the decreasing probability of WWII style wars of existence between major powers is accurate, I believe. For God help us all if we fight another world war with todays technology.
However, the rate of change in the cultures and societies of the nations of the world is accelerating. Another maxim of political science is that change spawns violence. The fighting will continue.

We in the West take for granted our societal progress, but much of the world still remains in a darker, more primitive place. I say this not in arrogance or belief in inherent superiority, but rather in the sense of an experienced adult witnessing the antics of teens.

It just is what it is.

Thank you for the encouragement, and I am attempting to express some very complex emotions in my own mind as I labor to place my life's experiences into some kind of perspective that would make sense to others.

Regards,
FarmerBob

Oh! I totally agree on the importance of us being prepared for war. There is never any doubt about that. I would much prefer to use anything and everything in our power to defuse such situations, whether through sports, dialogue, or any other alternative means at our disposal.

War should ALWAYS be the very last resort.

Cuba is another nation that I can think of that I can see becoming more liberal, like China is now, in the future. Which is why I am glad we never went to real war against that nation. Fidel's brother has instituted 2 new freedoms, that may seem really minor, but in actuality is quite a big step forward:

The Cuban people are now allowed to stay in hotels and own cell phones. That may seem quite ridiculous to us, especially considering that a good 80% of that population could not even AFFORD such "luxuries." But it IS a step in the right direction. That will be the legacy of the brother of Fidel (can't think of his name.)

The Castros' predecessors may institute even more, wide-sweeping, changes.

There are many other developing third world countries in the same boat. The last thing we should do is have any kind of conflict with these countries.

The only conflict we should wage are against the stable dictatorships, that are going nowhere, such as Iran.

I believe that N.Korea caould, in the near future, begin to take those early steps like China and Cuba because of the pressure between the US and China on that country. I know there are still talks to unifying the Koreas, which I would love to see happen. Bush is an idiot by labeling N. Korea the way he did. It only stalled the unification process.

I do not excuse the brutalities of Kim Jong Il's regime, but maybe his predecessors will begin some reforms there. The last thing we need to do is to rock the boat over there.

If this post spawns a large debate with other people, I will not participate. I only have hope for the future, that is all.

Yes, societies across the globe are becoming more liberal. However, have we forgotten that relatively modern, "liberal" societies have found reason for conflict in the past?

Wars tend to be about economic consequences of population pressures. Plenty of those pressures are around the world and will likely intensify.

Question for you to ponder.

What were the ideological and societal differences between the belligerents of WWI, Franco-Prussian, Crimean War, etc?

On a personal note, Michael. Feel free to jump in as you like. The two Roberts are just gabbing and he is helping me experiment with my writing, but this is not a closed conversation.

And never apologize even indirectly for not having worn a uniform. Many good men never have and many boys did that shouldn't have.

I guess all those wars had at least one thing in common: Extreme nationalism.

No matter how liberal a country is, there is still going to be rather fervant nationalist feelings towards ones own country, making it almost impossible to there never being a war somewhere on the globe. So I guess I agree with ya there.

No matter how much you say to never apologize for never wearing a uniform, there is still that guilt factor when you see a few of your friends being sent off to war straight from high school.

The summer after I graduated, which was just after 9/11, is when I tried signing up for the air force. They asked if I have ever had any kind of injuries, and I said yes, I busted my ankle twice. They sent me to a hospital to have x-rays taken to see if there is scar tissue. There was. A whole lot of it. I was rejected...lol even though we were at war.

Deep down, I was always glad of that, and that's where some of the guilt comes in I guess.

But yeah, anyways, carry on!

Michael. Your friends volunteered. Drafts been gone for a long time now. If you think you have something for which to atone, donate a few bucks to some of the veteran's charities. Other than that, don't even waste a moment of life thinking about it. We choose our own paths.

My point about the conflicts of past is that simlar societies are perfectly capable of coming to blows. Every nation on Earth could become a representative democracy with a free market economy and we would still have wars.

Well, yeah, there will still be wars between representative democracies. Look at Iran. The people do elect their president (i think? His title IS "President of Iran" after all. But I do not know how Iran's government works, or how it is run)

Countries can hold elections, but does not mean they are fair, or there is no or very little corruption. Happens in Africa all the time.

But the countries in question, such as China and N.Korea, can become perfectly good model democracies decades from now. When that happens to countries like that, the likelihood for them to go against another, similar democratic society, is much reduced.

Sorry, I dunno about donating any money to vet charities, at least for the time being. I have no dispossible income at all. As things stand, I can barely afford to so much as feed myself, and to put gas in my car just to get to my 2 crappy part time jobs, while going to school part time as well. But when I am done and making a lot of extra money, I'll think about lol.

There are other charities I would like to support though.

Hey guys! The prodigal son has returned. Some interesting conversations here while I was away.

Bob, your approach to your war experiences is so on target. If you will note in those other books you referenced, the true heroes do not glorify what they did. War IS hell, and sane and rational men get no enjoyment from it. I had an E7 friend at Knox who had been in an LRRP unit in Nam, he told me about the methods employed by the NVA "political education units". It's much better not to go into detail.

But as long as there is evil in the world, and good men (and women) willing to risk their lives to combat it, there will be war. And where there is war, there will be innocents, and innocence, lost.

Is there such a thing as a "just" war? I would like to think that war to free an oppressed people or to prevent genocide are justifiable reasons for conflict. But I am contradicted by reality. The Bosnian conflict was to stop the genocide and "ethnic cleansing" (such a noble sounding piece of crap)of the Muslim population in the region by the Serbs. The result? Hundreds of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues burned to the ground, Albanian "death squads" running rampant killing and displacing "infidels" in order to establish the Muslim nation of Kosovo.

The situation in Iraq needs no discussion here, other than to say that IMO the effort to make war "cleaner" does NOT serve any useful purpose. It causes the reverse, it gives the enemy guaranteed "safe zones" from which to operate, and gives a propaganda bonanza to said enemy when things go wrong.

There was an old Star Trek episode that struck me when I saw it, and stays with me yet today. In the story there were two planets who had been at war for thousands of years. But they never fired a shot, everything was done by computer simulations. When the battle results were in, each planet sent the appropriate number of "casualties" to a death chamber. No muss, no fuss. No weapons systems or ammo to buy, in fact no military needed at all. As "clean" as it gets, except that people were still being killed. As Kirk and Spock point out after destroying the computers, war is SUPPOSED to be horrific so that people will do all they can to avoid it.

It is to your credit, Robert, that you can hate war and it's consequences and yet recognize the need to be prepared. All great military men have held the same opinion. Anyone who has not been in a leadership position during a combat situation cannot fully comprehend the agony a military officer goes through when he gives the order that he knows may result in the loss of some of his men.

Don't have a lot of time, just got back last night and need to finalize and ship my article.
Will make an effort to return tomorrow.

Hi, MM! See you've joined in on our conversation. Funny you mentioned to Bob about writing a journal, that's what got this whole thing started, I suggested the same. Welcome aboard.