Any Christians Here (White Giant)

I just had two questions that can go to any Christians on the board.

1. Why would God damn a individual to hell for giving them the ability to think/free will.

2. Alot of people say that abortions/Cloning is a method of playing god, does that mean that God isn't all almighty and power as hes thought to be... And with enough patience a single human being can become a God?

I do like the teachings of the bible but I believe god is unjust.

@Serpent
Just to make things clear, when I said intent I meant to include a reasonable effort which I automatically associated with intent.

A moral gray area means situations that are complex enough that doing either action will result in some wrong and some right. The question is which decision is most moral, and which decision does the most good come out of things? Nobody knows exactly which path God would have them choose, there is no divine revelation. As for the rationalization part, the intent of that statement is to show that people generally do what they think is right, whether or not it can reasonably be justified. Also, that is why I said there is a reason for the moral compass that is in the bible even if it can only offer a general direction.

Trust me, read one book on Moral Theology and you will see that much deliberation would be needed to make every decision in life. There are very few decisions made in everyday life by the average person that can be described as anything but morally vague.

@Loki

1. I may not be the person to speak, but God does not damn people for having free will. He gives them a choice. Have you ever read Milton? I think it was paradise lost where he talks about Satan and how he came to hell. He made the conscious decision to oppose God, and was sent out of heaven. Those who have been "damned" are much like Satan (I am not implying that they are inherently evil, I am working off Milton's Satan) because they have freely and willingly chosen to oppose God and should know that what they are doing is wrong. I think the Christian teaching is that if a person has never had the opportunity to learn of God and Christian morality then they cannot freely and willingly oppose or follow his will and would not have effectively damned themselves.

Basically, God doesn't damn people; people choose to damn themselves. And God always forgives people who ask for it, so he gives them every opportunity to change their minds and repent.

2. Well, I think you have the abortion thing mixed up. The reason it is opposed by Christianity is because from the moment a child is conceived that it has life. If it has life, then abortion would end that life. Life is sacred and to end it would be murder, and God doesn't like murder. Much different and more straightforward than cloning.

Now, cloning was something the bible was not around to deal with. The question is what makes it wrong? Trying to become God is not the problem. We humans can only manipulate the universe, we are subject to the laws of physics and energy, of chemistry and biology. How can we ever become God who is reckoned to be responsible for the greatest magic trick ever, creating everything from nothing? The answer is we simply can't, we can never do more than manipulate or even trick the universe into doing what we want. We can have great power, but never omnipotence.

Playing God means that we attempt to do that which we do not truly understand, we are toying with the very stuff of life in cloning. We can create that which is alive in the physical sense, but is it alive in the spiritual sense? Does it have a soul? Nobody knows. What is the moral consequence of trying to put life into that which might not have a soul? Nobody can say for sure. The ultimate question being, do we wish to toy with that which God considered good and sacred? How can it be justified, if we cannot understand the morality or comprehend the consequences for this living being we have copied? We play a gamble, and do not do any justice to the clone we have copied.

A "righteous" man is not necessarily what we might consider a "good" man. Grasp the nature of the differences betweens God's expectations(as espoused in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures) and man's, and you will understand Christianity.

Loki of Azure made a good point about God damning ppl for using their free will. But what ya gotta realize is that free will, just like any other privilege, comes with responsibility. Technically 'free will' allows a person to do anything, but they still may have to pay the consequences for using it. LOL I guess its like horsepower...you may have it, but you dont always wanna use it, and if you do, you might have to pay the consequences.

And Sun Tzu made the statement "Trust me, read one book on Moral Theology and you will see that much deliberation would be needed to make every decision in life. There are very few decisions made in everyday life by the average person that can be described as anything but morally vague." I agree with you about reading a book on moral theology you prolly would have to spend much time and energy trying to figure out what is the best decision in everyday life. But I don't think so with the 'TRUE' Moral Guidebook the bible. Maybe I just cant think of any particular circumstance that would come up in everyday life that leaves room for a gray area. But I suppose their is a 'moral compass' but just as a compass that points north, if you decide to go NE will you actually end up north?

As for the abortion thing I agree 100% with Sun Tzu. And I'm not educated enough on cloning and what all is involved to even have an opinion on that. Sorry for my ignorance!

Here's a grey area, Serpent. A pre-teen kid approaches a military checkpoint carrying a medium sized bag that she is clutching oddly. When challenged by one of the two sentries to stop, she looks scared and starts fiddling with something inside the bag. You are watching this through the optics of your sniper rifle because you are in overwatch of this checkpoint. She is now within 20 meters of the soldiers you are covering. What do you do?

Well use the bible, are there any principles that you can go by to make that decision? First thing to figure out is this: Is war a moral thing? Now I understand that in the world in which we live, and the governments that rule the majority of the population, there are things that happen that make them feel they are justified in going to war. So which one of the ten commandments would apply?

When a person gets involved in an immoral thing, then immoral things will happen. For example according to the bible sex out of marriage is immoral. So what if you spend alot of time in bars and clubs where the people there are generally promiscuous individuals? Going to the bar or club in itself is not immoral. But what can happen by going there is. Because after a while as things progress and you get more comfortable with your surroundings immoral things may happen. Eventually you may end up doing something immoral. You may have not even intended to do anything immoral, but you did do things that put you in that position.

Although this sounds cliche and it has been commercialized, but never-the-less 'What would Jesus do?' The answer to that question is the answer to your question about the 'gray area'.

Tao, the subtle reality of the universe cannot be described, That which can be described in words is mearly a conception of the mind. Although names and descriptions have been applied to it, the subtle reality is beyond the description.
Tao Teh Ching - beginning of chapter 1

The subtle essense of the universe is elusive and evasive.
...
It is the subtle origin of the whole of creation and non-creation. It existed prior to the beginning of time as the deep and subtle reality of the universe. It brings all into being.
Tao Teh Ching - portions of chapter 21

"There is, O monks,
an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed.


Were there not, O monks,
this unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed,
there would be no escape from the world
of the born, originated, created, formed.


"Since, O monks, there is an
unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, and unformed,
therefore there is an escape
from the born, originated, created, formed."

The Gospel of Buddha
Sermon at the bamboo grove at Rajagaha

Neither the multitude of gods nor great sages know of my origin, for I am the source of all the gods and great sages.

A mortal who knows me as the unborn, beginningless great lord of the worlds is freed from all delusion and all evils.
The Bhagavad-Gita - The tenth teaching, verses 2 & 3

There is One, only One Supreme Being, Truth Eternal, Creator of all seen & unseen, Fearless, Without hatred, Timeless Being, Non-Incarnated, Self created, Realized by the Grace of Guru (Perfect Master Only.)
Guru Granth Sahib Page 1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1

For thus saith the Eternal that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the self existent One; and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:18

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. He was present originally with God. All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without him was not one thing made that has come into being.
Gospel of John 1:1-3


You are the Absolute Existence which causes (our) transient (existences) to appear.
Masnavi - Book 1 - Creator and Creation


God is the indescribable, uncreated, self existent, eternal all knowing source of all reality and being. Our attempts to blame him or define him are flawed in their conception. A small child cannot understand or relate to the actions of an adult. They only know how those actions make them feel. This basic selfishness is the main stumbling block on a path to self discovery ....One who truly seeks God must first make the small leap of faith and acknowledge the relationship between Creator and created. And realize that humanities accumulated knowledge is insignificant in comparison. Once you have realized you know nothing you can begin....

I have enjoyed following this thread over the last few months. I think Loki's issue of free will goes right to the heart of the matter.

God created Adam and placed him in the garden to make a great choice - to exercise his free will. His choice was to obey God in the one prohibition - not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil on the penalty of death.

Adam was freshly created from the hand of God and inclined to obedience, Satan came to Adam and told him that he could be like God. Adam listened to Satan and allowed his wife to eat the fruit first to test whether the word of the Lord was true (I will develop that argument, if anyone wants).

When he saw the Eve did not die, he ate AND accepted the worship of Satan (a complex argument that I can develop, if anyone wants.

In essence, the whole of sin and forgiveness comes down to the exercise of free will. People who hate God chose to do so, and do not want to spend an eternity with Him. They chose that is part of what it means to be created in the image of God.

Adam

I am catholic, but what is the interest?

The modern idea of hell did not exist until after Dante Alighieri created it. Essentially, a work of fiction was so popular that the Catholic church adopted parts of it as official dogma. Crazy as it sounds, it's the truth.

I'm also a so-called "Christian". But my belief system does not exactly match any denomination. The Mennonites are the closest approximation to my own beliefs. But even they are only an 80% match.

1. Why would God damn a individual to hell for giving them the ability to think/free will.
It's not for the free will itself, but rather for what is done with it. I can give you a hammer; you can build a house or crush someone's skull with it. My reaction would be appropriate for each - praise or condemnation. God must feel that He already gave us all the guidance we should need.

2. Alot of people say that abortions/Cloning is a method of playing god, does that mean that God isn't all almighty and power as hes thought to be... And with enough patience a single human being can become a God?
I don't think either is 'playing God'. But I do think any parent wants his children to grow up to be what he considers good people; strong moral character, both physically and mentally able. I don't see why God would want it any other way for His "children". Eventually, those of us who "make the cut" would probably become as God is, eventually.
Perhaps, someday, His children will go forth and create their own creations.

Which does bring me to a circular argument I like to use. I figure God exists as long as humans exist. The argument goes as thus:
First, we must define God.
1. all knowing
2. ever present
3. all powerful.
As long as humans exist, we will search and inquire about the nature of the universe. Eventually, even if it takes a trillion years, we will master everything there is to master. At some point, we will figure out how to look at all points in all of creation at all times and report everything back to one person. At that point, there are only 2 possible outcomes.
1. he finds God - and he probably won't be happy about it.
2. he finds that he is God.
Either way, there is a 100% probability that one of these two outcomes is true... as long as humans exist.
But if we become extinct, then nobody will be around to tell me I'm wrong.

Who knows? Perhaps some scientist in the far distant future realizes that his experiment just created the universe in which he lives. Now wouldn't that cook your brain?