Simcountry
Forum General War

War

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Laguna

All worlds
26 Aug 2010 23:21Link
This game doesn't need war. In fact, removing it completely will give the team the necessary time to develop and fix everything else; it would create a void that players would necessarily fill with something else - either in or out of the game. Need I say more?

What is needed is a reduction in the frequency of wars, until war can actually be a part of this game instead of a perpetual annoyance. Nothing that has been said here comes close to resolving that true and central issue.
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Keto

All worlds
26 Aug 2010 23:50Link
16a) disagree. Why should a player who invested time and money to biuld an offense be penalized for it? Not fair that defenders have wp and would be attackers no wp because of their offensive index. I think the 50% of assets out of wp would suffice.
b) same a a) above.

18- all this would do is provide a small income for would be attackers. Anyone who has been decd will always/mostly opt out of fighting to prevent their country/s from being taken. I see this deterring people from attacking, causing people to leave the game. Who wants to fight for a little bit of gcs, cash or pop when they can have the whole country?

19- Limiting war decs will prevent veterans from fighting. Most veterans have fought many wars. This would limit who the vets can target and take away the willingness to play the war game, resulting in the loss of more players.

25-FI should be below 100. Not alot of players can have a FI over 120 while
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chrysostom (White Giant)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 02:32Link
I agree with Whiteboy's idea to have different level C3s, and awards for taken them for he first time at a level.


A have a few more ideas:

1. Increase the number of forts a player can build from 100 to 120 (this will immediatly improve defense)

2. reduce the number of soldiers and officers needed for defense forces. This will reduce the problem of autodeactivation, and will increase the size of the defense force that can be fielded.

3. In times of war, completely remove limits to changes in government salaries. This way countries can pay whatever is needed to hire soldiers and officers needed.

4. Allow for Stop-Loss orders like the US military has. With Stop-Loss no member of the military is allowed to leave. While new soldiers and officers would join, old ones will not leave based on age or new offers.

5. Allow the option of using Operational Contract Support (OCS). In
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chrysostom (White Giant)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 03:21Link
re 25 - It is simply not realistic that a country can support a large army that it cannot pay for.

- a certain game level should be required to buy certain military items. I'd suggest that the most effective offensive weapons should require game level 10. This way, like in real life, only superpowers should be allowed to build the most effective offensive weapons.

-a certain game level should also be required before being allowed to start a war. Say level 3.

-At higher game levels, a few new weapons should be possible. Such as a satalites. These could be used to gather information in place of long range radar plans, and would provide the information without risk of beind destroyed. They would also make MIB more effective.
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Vicious (Little Upsilon)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 04:21Link
12. "Arguments against: This will require increased clicking to destroy the defense. We do not think that we should have a weak defense to reduce the amount of clicking. This is an argument for no defense at all."

That response is insulting. I challenge you to show that anyone in this thread has argued for "for no defense at all."

Where does W3C get the idea that defensive weapons are weak? What proof is there of that?

If you increase the power of defensve weapons, then of course you are increasing the amount of clicking for attackers to bypass that defense. More clicking = less players interested in war.

It's absolutely illogical for you to claim that an argument against increased defense is an argument for less clicking. If defense stays the same, then the amount of clicking stays the same.

I'm saying: leave defensive weapons the same as they are. Nobody here has said: m
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Jojo T. Hun (Little Upsilon)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 06:12Link
What they are saying is that the argument that "stronger defense is bad because it will require more clicking" is a weak argument, because by the same logic "weaker defense is good because it will require less clicking", and it leads to an optimum solution of no defense at all, reductio ad absurdum. You could argue that we currently have the optimum balance of defense and the clicking needed to destroy it. Is that what you're saying? I dislike clicking as much as the next guy, but I think the def needs to be beefed up relative to offense.

Target clicking is fundamentally different that other kinds of clicking. A war is taking place in real time, and the defense has a right to respond in real time. Reducing the amount of clicking to take out targets sounds attractive, but it weakens the defense in that it gives them less time to respond. I'm not saying a solution can't be found (rounds again?) I'
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whiteboy (White Giant)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 06:33Link
I don't understand why the c3 level idea was dismissed almost as if it was ridiculous. Of course the intention is for players to fight eachother, however that can't just happen out of no where when no one knows how to fight. If you only learn by attacking a current c3 then you are screwed when you actually go to war with a real player assuming the real player knows ANYTHING about the game at all. The leveling c3's would serve EXACTLY the same purpose that the current levels do, the current levels teach players how to play the game, mostly the econ game and how to buy weapons (which is all that is necessary to achieve higher levels). The c3 leveling system would teach people how to fight, a necessary condition to increase use of the war engine.

I really don't understand why all of this increased defense talk is being treated as if it will change anything. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you increas
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Orbiter (White Giant)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 06:53Link
yea, i was doing ruff calculation, today actually...

the thing that you are missing, jojo. is that its not JUST offense versus defense. in the case that a player is only spending money on offense, compared to a player spending on offense and defense... the balanced player wins...

the player playing offense, still has to purchase defense... so just comparing the cost of offense to defense, isn't entirely fair.

starting with a C3, you could add up the cost of building a "standard," defence, for 50M country. and put it in gold coin terms... add into that the cost, in gc, of the bare offense needed for it to be able to defeat its twin... then compare it to the cost of building a 50M econ slave, with extra cash, and WP cost until it is developed enough to pay its own protection... when i did my figures, i figured the cost of the Econ at (highest,) half the cost of the WS. and probably half the effort.
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Psycho_Honey (Little Upsilon)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 07:04Link
It was dismissed WB because it *was* ridiculous.

However for everyone that is disgruntled by changes you begged the gms to introduce, feel free to rant here http://madrantz.net/BlogRantz/. Don't hesitate to mention that it is all Wendy's fault when posting :) Enjoy.
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whiteboy (White Giant)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 08:55Link
I can see the *thought* behind the idea that players might venture into war more because they feel their defense is stronger, but it ultimately makes no sense. If their defense is stronger, so is the defense of whoever it is they might declare upon, there is nothing different, just more clicking, which we already know is a main reason people avoid the war game. There will continue to be no incentive for players to test out the war game any more than they have already, in reality, there will be even less of an incentive as many players have only tested it out to get at least a small grasp, knowing their defense is stronger than it was before will only lead players in the same direction they have already been going. There will be less war if the defenses become stronger, not more, thus less knowledge about the war engine which leads to...a very small number of players holding all of the cards...sounds familiar...
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Tom Willard

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 09:31Link
C3 Levels

The idea is not ridiculed. We just argued why it cannot be done.

C3s must be at about the same level because new players always get an existing C3.
The war game should not be based on wars between players and unmanned defense but rather on wars between real players.

Clicking and the power of the defense.

These two issues are unrelated.

YES, we want to balance the war game and
YES, we want to reduce clicking

these are two different issues and you cannot argue against balancing the war game because of clicking.

Let's first balance it and then look into the clicking on both sides.

The numbers of destroyed weapons during attacks are in favor of the attacker. The numbers should be more balanced and the cost for the attacker should of course be higher.
When you decide to attack, you damage the defender but your cost is higher. This was always so in the game and in re
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whiteboy (Little Upsilon)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 09:57Link
As far as c3 levels, if it can't be done because of a system issue, no problem, I understand completely. However, saying new players get a c3 is not enough to convince me that it can't be done, the c3's would be set up in levels, would it be difficult to make sure that all new players get a level 1 c3? If the system could be set up to produce the c3 levels, I wouldn't think that would be the limiting factor.

I understand that in the past there was more warfare, war was different then and it wasn't just because of all fed members participating. Also, the example of 20k lost bombers and fighters is not meaningful, I lost more than that just taking out air d in WGC's big cluster, which I expected to lose. That isn't a huge number. W3C has made players VERY committed to their countries by not allowing players to strip c3's, by not allowing players to reduce pop below 25 mil, by putting negative effects on empires t
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Laguna

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 15:27Link
I have refrained from reading and posting anything truly serious in this thread, because I knew that making any one point would be pointless and whatever "solution" comes out of this would be tangent to the problem. But you are taking way too long with nothing, which will change nothing.

I will speed things up by showing you what this thread should look like in one post:


What is the problem?
- Players complain something is out of whack.
Is this superficial or profound?
- Superficial.
What motives them then?
- Possibilities include the conditions of war, the damage war inflicts, the loss of the country or the time spent warring.
These are profound causes. Which one is the most serious?
- From my knowledge and historical evidence, the loss of the object of their admiration and/or result of their labour. Losing something that is dear is always hard.
Are the others relevant?
-Only in the matter
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Tom Willard

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 17:15Link
This is the next iteration.
I am removing some items and consolidating others to create a clear work list for our developers. Items that have been executed are in the game news and will be removed from the lst.

The numbers attached to items before are now changed.

We will not make any extreme changes and will not implement all these features. The ones we will implement will not be extreme but rather tuning of the current system.

1. Reduce or solve the problem of automatic deactivation.
There are several measures we can take:
a. Change the conditions for deactivations and make them kick in later.
b. Include more age groups in the army.
c. Reducing the numbers in the army. Salaries could be higher and the cost could remain unchanged.
We could implement more than one of these options. Whatever we choose, will be done in small steps to have time to check the effects and prevent earth-quake like effects.
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Laguna

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 18:02Link
I would have thought that after nine years, the failure of this model had become evident. One does have to wonder what exactly any of you are thinking.

1.
c. Ok.

2.
b. If you can make it happen, Boss.

4. No.

5. You need to clarify if and when you mean countries or players.

6. I would call it a day after six hours.

7. More automatic stuff? What is wrong with you! I've been here since the automaton craze, and I hardly know what is going on with my country.
Just let me save some unit blueprints that I create on the game, so I can build them faster according to my specification, instead of the game's default.

8. Yes, no, maybe... If the soldiers are coming from my country's LLWs forget it.

9. Empires with war protection on at least one country - secure mode isn't war protection -, cannot declare war on another player. Once he declares war on a player country, no
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Psycho_Honey (Little Upsilon)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 19:11Link
Actually, Laguna and Tom. Maybe, just maybe what can happen here, is that another Version of SimCountry can be created, from scratch.

Reason Being, while the changes and suggestions Laguna just made a few posts ago make complete sense, I think people realize what they have paid for. Altering that too much would probably cause many people and players who love the game as is to want to quit or feel like they paid for something that game will become while wanting what it is currently.

I feel I have an ultimate solution that will allow what Tom is doing now to proceed, while providing an alternative.

Conquest World Servers.
At First, I thought that a completely new game would suffice as a valid alternative. But in afterthought, I realized this would constitute too much of a demand on the GMs, developers, and split the player base leading to further abandonment of other worlds.

The general Idea or Concept is to give Aggr
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Orbiter (Little Upsilon)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 20:19Link
1. reducing deactivations... mixed feelings, see my comment to lg on #10...
but the concept is interesting. wasn't their talk of a market, where you could buy the right age mlm, it'd be something like mercenaries? right? that would also follow, that people could SELL them, i kinda like that. a person who is poorly prepared, and is trying to compensate for lack of skill with money... well why not make it cost them?

2. i oppose the start now button. when a player decs, both players know in advance when the shooting starts. rather, give the defender expanded sneak attack options. meaning they still get the first shot, with out going into full war mode.

5. thanks for giving some ground on this. i still don't like c e and g... they will make things 2 herky jerky.

6. i favor a time limit, if some one is defending, they shouldn't have to fight of the same guy for a week? the suggestion of 48 hours soun
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Orbiter (White Giant)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 21:09Link
wendy's idea is really good, it really is.

especially the black out part. you set your black outs, and end up near people that you don't have to wait 16 hours to fight!!! thats excellent!!!

giving every one the same basic start, and giving a gc award at the end of the month to the most successful players... i really can't find a real problem with it

it wont end wars in other worlds. as the build up process in permanent worlds would be much higher, so big country battles would happen more on other worlds... but offering a monthly, month long tournament for bragging rights and coins...with a relatively cheap buy in...excellent!!
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Blueserpent (Little Upsilon)

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 23:05Link
My 2 cents,

The game needs whats missing or broken to be fixed, not the addition of more things.

More units etc are just going to add to the list of "not working correctly"

There is a back catologue of things waiting to be implemented that have already been accepted/promised.

Going back just 2 yrs ago, this game was far more enjoyable with less.

Fix what needs fixing first.
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Laguna

All worlds
27 Aug 2010 23:47Link
<!-Quote-!>Quote:

if their is no point to gaining an advantage, their is no point to putting out any effort!!! i do not feel that currently an aggressor can gain an unfair advantage, when many players have had real life YEARS to prepare a defense... seriously think about that LG, if you've had a country for a RL year... should it be prepared? if it isn't who's fault is that? not mine for being prepared when i attack it...<!-/Quote-!>


And the United States had 225 years to get prepared to have two of their towers blow by a couple of planes, along with the Pentagon. Obviously, it is entirely their fault.

Players have years to prepare for an attack... May the players who have been buying weapons and ammo for every game month with all their countries for the past couple of years please raise their hands? Are these the same players whose first thought when logging in their countries is
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Psycho_Honey (Little Upsilon)

All worlds
28 Aug 2010 00:22Link
Interesting


no win. I'd rather be left with not fighting at all.
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Orbiter (White Giant)

All worlds
28 Aug 2010 00:24Link
"And the United States had 225 years to get prepared to have two of their towers blow by a couple of planes, along with the Pentagon. Obviously, it is entirely their fault. " -lg

that one is out of line

wow, seriously? you can't compare an act of terrorism, done more in the realm of espionage (which is a feature we don't have in SC,) to an act of war. further, this act of terrorism lead to 2 wars, lasting a decade, the level of retribution has been long and far reaching

but this is a game.

as is stands, right now, a country can avoid any war damage, with WP... in real life, that just isn't possible.

but if you want to use a real life example of lack or preparation, and an ACT OF WAR, look at pearl harbor. the lack of expecting an attack, meant many people died, and full scale war ensued... and through AGGRESSIVE means, the attacker was eventually destroyed, and it included the
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Laguna

All worlds
28 Aug 2010 00:40Link
That is the SC equivalent of coming out of the blue and smack a player with a war dec and what follows.

If I had said the Chinese had 4 000 years to avoid the genocide during the Second World War, would you call it out of line? You would probably leave it at odd. I work with what I have.
The point is time matters not when others are entertained with something else. And they mostly are.

If players don't want to fight back, who are you to force? If they don't, they don't. They were minding their own business, jogging along, paying their membership. It is in the interest of the game to keep it as such. They are the proof that war is not necessary. Most wars players fight are a great deal of smoke and mirrors.

Many things are called a game by some. Simcountry is... well, the moment you pay for membership, it's a hobby. For those that have gardening as a hobby, if I showed and trampled your favorite rose bush, would
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Orbiter (Little Upsilon)

All worlds
28 Aug 2010 00:52Link
"no win. I'd rather be left with not fighting at all." -wendy

thats what him and others are going for, no win, no fighting... customizes the game to fit their playing style. they can effect politics, and not risk loosing.

if a player wants to play a no risk game. the documentation clear states they can, with their secured mode country, and wp...

the documentation also clearly states, that if you want to expand past one country, you must defend it. why is this a problem?

don't remove every advantage a player can gain... just to make if fair for those that don't put out as much effort. add some equalization, sure. but not so much that you remove the value of effort, and preparation. other wise, if you want to play a no effort game... face book has tons of no effort games, with no risk, and you can socialize all you want. for free

personally, i enjoy challenging games. i like winning