JERUSALEM

I was thinking more Leninist, Sam.LOL

Thank God, we have such an enlightened Google intellectual to educate us poor, ignorant souls. I never realized how apparently simple it is to establish moral superiority through Diktat.

One only need ignore any fact which doesn't fit into one's preconceived notion. Ah. The logic of the dialectic is alive and well.

No cars in Gaza, they have all been blown up. Rumour is due to declining sales and the threat of car manufactures going out of business in the US, George W asked the israleis to increase the demand for cars by taking out the palestians cars.

I did not want to break in on the preaching.

I can almost see you foaming at the mouth at the incredulous insult that knuckledraggers don't understand the whole big picture of South-West Asia as well as you.


Lulz.

Remove Hamas and you remove Israels excuse. Simple enough for you AL?

Oh, it's so much more than merely "simple enough," Dr. Vali.
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."

Wow - I think I could get the hang of that. And I bet it's just as insightful and pertinent the millionth time as it is the first time.

It obviously works for you!

What really makes this situation dumb is that innocent people die. In every war, corrupt gov't lead their poor people to war over dumb, greedy reasons. This always results in innocent deaths.
It's honestly sad.
Who do you blame when all parties are at fault.

Ask Dr. Vali - he blames the victims.
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."
"It's all the Palestinians' fault."

Mmmm... I wish I'd known about this before. It's so darn easy on the grey matter. I can actually do a crossword puzzle and watch Jihad Johanas at the same time!

I'm so sorry: that's a really crude statement of Vali's views. Of course he believes everyone is a victim, so the way I stated it is actually very sloppy. Apologies.

A more accurate statement would be as follows: Everyone is a victim. But some victims are more victimized than others. Some of them way, way more. If you want to find out who is to blame, simply find these victims, the ones who are getting the absolute worst of it, have the least to do with starting things and the least power to stop things.

Apply blame right between the eyes, with both barrels.

If blame isn't your thing, and you're very, very easy to entertain, watch Rihab Sickey and make jokes about the plight of the worst off while yelling "Nazis! Marxists!" over and over again at anyone who behaves differently.

If you're above it all, just refuse to engage with the topic entirely, since reality would be sullied by an

Or we can just laugh at your pompous ,aggrandizing, posts.

Either way its all good.

Al, you seem to take this very personnaly. Are you palestinian? My opinion is that Hamas is most to blame. The IDF obviously use too much force in attacking Hamas, but thats what years of conflict do to you.
The average palestinain probably does not think too highly of israel and see Hamas as away of striking back at Israel and the great satan.
Peace will only come about if there is a ceasefire from both sides..no doubt a few will continue to fight on both sides. The peaceful will have to overcome these.
Removing Hamas is in my opinion the quickest way to a ceasefire. The Isrealis try to do this by force, the palestinians will resist.
The average palestinian will have to realsie Hamas is the root of their problem, and the Israelis will have to change a few of the generals in charge for less militant ones.
Both sides will need to change, A change in Hamas will be the trigger for change on both sides.

Laugh, JB, laugh - dance with the lady that brung you, after all. That and coming up with new names to yell. Marxist, Nazi, anti-Semite, pompous, aggrandizing (?) - indeed, it's all good. Very, very good. Never been better. Now, off you go - I think I hear Bibab Schmeagol calling.

Okay Vali - let's see: the IDF uses too much force, but hey, it's not really their fault because they've faced "years of conflict" (I love how neutral that sounds, but anyway...) so they have an excuse not to change. Hamas uses way less force, and has also been "conditioned by years of conflict" but they are not to claim that as an excuse for anything. They're the main problem and will simply have to change.

Are you telling me there's no contradiction there?

Hi Almohad. Nice to see your still resisting. If you are an American I apologize if anything that I have said has offended you.

Vali, you said 'Remove Hamas and you remove Israels excuse.'
Did you know that Israel supported Hamas to weaken Fata back in the day?
You also said, 'A change in Hamas will be the trigger for change on both sides.'
Your right there, Israel will be able to land grab without resistance and the Palistinians will end up in the refugee camps in Lebanon.
You asked Almohad if he was a Palestinian. I wonder if you are a Zionist?

Johanas Bilderburg AKA SAM.
What is it with you with writing something yet saying nothing? You did the same in the Enviromental and UN threads. Are you in training to be a Joker?

Anyway, how can Tank, Artillery and cluster bombs be classed as precision targeting?

Thanks nix. Good to see you: fight the good fight! The Palestinians can't fight back against the Israelis so the least we can do is keep Israel's apologists in their verbal bunkers. Or in JB/Sam's case, wandering around in no-man's-land in some sort of neuroleptic state...

Good point about Israel helping Hamas build up in the early days as a counterweight to Fatah. Same as the US helping the Taliban against the USSR in Afghanistan. These critters always slip the leash eventually!

I'm not American, so no worries. And there's plenty of Americans who say way worse about the US than you or I do. Same as there are Israelis who criticize Israel way more strongly than I would ever dare to.

Frankly, I'm still a bit scared about the anti-Semite bomb that gets thrown at critics of Israel. So far, though, only Sam has tossed that one, and that's clearly the fault of the mother ship he gets his orders from,

White Phosporous and Depleted Uranium are pretty common. As an ex-mortarman we used WP very often for smoke. Depleted Uranium is used in armor, mostly Abrams Tanks. I don't know how it is used in weapons...

"BBC spoke to a doctor in a Hamas hospital yesterday and he said that of the hundreds of injured he had seen, two were Hamas fighters. So I bet the civilian casualty figures we're getting now are way understated."

Or the doctor exaggerated/lied. There's always that option. I don't pretend to know much about this conflict, but exaggerating civilian casualties is a pretty common tactic. There's always room for some skepticism.

For sure we have to be skeptical. As we have to be skeptical of the claims we're getting now.

And frankly I'm putting way more faith in a doctor who isn't even Palestinian and obviously came to Gaza and put his life at risk to help others, and sees the casualties face to face, than I'm putting in the word of the Israelis who are overflying some hundreds of feet in the air and at high speed.

Until we know for sure, I think that past civilian death counts in Israeli operations should also be taken as at least a rough guide to what we can expect this time around. Also some intuition can be exercised to estimate how much 'precision' the Israelis can employ (that's assuming they want to - again, skepticism is well justified) in using weapons of mass destruction in one of the most crowded places on earth.

WP is used for smoke but is also highly toxic. Whether or not it's common is really beside the point.

http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/dts/docs/detwp.pdf

For those of you watching footage of Gaza, those puffs of smoke that then send tendrils down to the ground and look spiderlike are 'deployments' of WP.

BC. 'Depleted Uranium is used in armor, mostly Abrams Tanks. I don't know how it is used in weapons...'
It is used in the tips to make the bang that little bit bigger. The Yanks used them in Iraq. It also causes cancers and leukemia, which on a battlefield would be no problem, but in populated area's it sticks to the dust and buildings and like all nuclear material, will stay around for generations.

Since when did Hamas worry about civilian casualties anyways? What are suicide bombers for? Killing mostly civilians, correct?

What moral difference is there between Israel killing civilians to get to Hamas and Hamas hiding behind civilians to get Israel?

I think I've expressed my opinion on this trhead or another that I believe that the Palestinians have a legitimate beef with the Israelis. But, if they want to bring it to war, then they should be willing to suffer any consequences. They want to be martyrs, then bloody let them. There won't be a "civilized" war. When has there EVER been one? The problem with this war is that the world won't let either side bring it to final resolution, so it drags on.


Sorry, if all of these points have been made previously but I'm not reading this entire arguement. It's far too long.

BC

The depleted uranium hardens the metal, right?

BC. Wrong. Suicide bombers are the only way they can hit a military target. Due to the crude devices thay can go off without the bomber wanting them too. Hence the civilian casualties. If they had F16's, they would have no need to use suicide bombers. If they had cruise missiles they would have no need to use rockets that cannot be aimed.

"WP is used for smoke but is also highly toxic. Whether or not it's common is really beside the point."

It'll chemically burn the everliving shit out of you!

And it wasn't "beside the point". You said that if Hamas used it then there would be "mushroom clouds over Gaza for sure". That's BS BECAUSE it IS commonly used.

nix:
"It is used in the tips to make the bang that little bit bigger."

Cool. Thanks.

'And it wasn't "beside the point". You said that if Hamas used it then there would be "mushroom clouds over Gaza for sure". That's BS BECAUSE it IS commonly used.'

Does Hamas use it?
That is what Almohad is getting at.

"BC. Wrong. Suicide bombers are the only way they can hit a military target. Due to the crude devices thay can go off without the bomber wanting them too. Hence the civilian casualties."

Strangely enough many of their targets have not been military but civilian. I don;t know how it is in Israel, but I doubt they hae military installations in crowded markets, buses, hotels, etc.

There are some pretty clear things about this conflict. Israel has done some bad shit and Hamas has done some bad shit. Let's not try and ignore/misrepresent/change the facts.

I'm not trying to defend Israel. I'd love to see them go at it in a real war. I don't care who wins. It just keeps dragging it on because of the peace efforts!

Does Hamas use it?
That is what Almohad is getting at.

No, but the fact that they are a commonly used military weapon leads to a VERY reasonable conclusion that there would be no retaliation against the enemy using it, ESPECIALLY one of nuclear proportions.

That's my point and it seems pretty clear to me.