JERUSALEM

Who uses them? There was an out cry when the Yanks used them in Iraq. They are dirty bombs.
As I said, If Hamas had F16's, they would have no need to use suicide bombers. If they had cruise missiles they would have no need to use rockets that cannot be aimed. They would be able to defend themselves. Creating a situation where Hamas could have military bases outside residential areas. (Do you know how small Gaza is?) Dood, they are not even allowed an army. They build their rocket, go into a field and fire it.
Same as what did the French resistance did against the occupation forces of Germany.
I bet the Germans called The French resistance terrorists aswell.

Why, that's a brilliant idea, Nix. Why didn't we supply Palestine with F16s? We are so stupid. But why give F16s, when we can give them a nuclear weapon? If they blow eachother out of the map, this will be all over and I can resume picking daisies.

Quit filling the CIA's shoes, Nix. Whenever someone tries to balance one side in war by supplying technology, that always curbs the wrong way.

For the record, this conflict interests me little.

I doubt Israel would do what it's doing if the Palistinians could fight back.

Anyway, up until the around the 1960's, the forces of Israel where classed by Britain and many other countries around the world as Terrorists. Yet the Yanks gave them weapons.

I don't have a problem with what you've just said. Give them an army, give them F16s, and give them as many fields and rockets as they need. Just let them fight it out until the end.

But, the issue was civilian casualties. I said that Hamas doesn't have much ground to stand on when it comes to condemning civilian casualties when they directly target civilians with their suicide bombs. Doesn't matter what weapons they use. Even if they only have crude bombs to use why does that give them the right to kill civilians?

If they want to fight the way they do, then fine. But they bear an equal responsibility of their own civilian casualties.

Who has told you that they target civilians?
90% of Israels men/women are soldiers, even when they are not playing soldiers.
The occupation directly targets civilians, as do the blockades and everything else the UN has drafted in their resolutions against Israel which have beed vetoed by the US.
Unlike every other conflict where civilians can leave the area, in Gaza they have no where to go. Why has'nt Israel opened up the borders to let out children and women?

"Who uses them? There was an out cry when the Yanks used them in Iraq. They are dirty bombs."

Are you talking about WP? That's not a dirty bomb. It's usually used in a mortar or artillery round for signaling, primarily. It can cause serious/fatal chemical burns as well..... but it's a weapon... they injure/kill.

There hasn't been any outcry over WP. I think you have it confused.

"90% of Israels men/women are soldiers, even when they are not playing soldiers."

Ok, well this conversation is obviously over... We have some serious bias going on.

No, depleated Urainium.
All, except the too old and too young, are soldiers.
You don't even give a shite about this conflict. Get interested, learn some facts and then maybe you will see whats going on.

Hamas build a rocket, go into a field and fire it.
Same as what the French resistance did against the occupation forces of Germany.
I bet the Germans called The French resistance terrorists aswell.

Up until the around the 1960's, the forces of Israel where classed by Britain and many other countries around the world as Terrorists.

"No, depleated Urainium."

Ah, Ok. But I didn't have much to say about DU except that I didn't know how it was used in weapons. Nothing to argue.

"90% of Israels men/women are soldiers, even when they are not playing soldiers."
"All, except the too old and too young, are soldiers."

Ok, how's this one for you:
"90% of Hamas have AIDS and are trying to spread it to the Israelis to wipe out the race."

or

"88.3666 (repeating)% of Hamas practice pedastry."

Can you deny that with FACT? We can do this all day long.

Sticking a percentage next to a statement doesn't make it true. Do you REALLY think I'm going to argue about whether 90% of Israeli's are soldiers? A great majority may have served at some point because of compulsary service but that doesn't mean they're still soldiers. You're showing blind bias and there isn't much I can say to refute made up numbers.

"Hamas build a rocket, go into a field and fire it.
Same as what the French resistance did against the occupation forces of Germany.
I bet the Germans called The French resistance terrorists aswell."

I think I said that I don't have a problem with that. No need to bring it up again.

Chill out BC. You said 'this conversation is obviously over' I replied to your question and the rest was for everyone else.

'A great majority may have served at some point because of compulsary service but that doesn't mean they're still soldiers.'

They are at times of war.

I felt I needed to explain my point. It's not very respectful to "conclude a conversation" without at least explaining why. That was my fault.

But you're right. I do care little about this conflict, I do need to learn facts. Unfortunately that will be near impossible with all of the BS, from all sides, floating around.

BC

I know Bro. But if you watch All news channels, listen to All radio talk and phone in shows, use All means of getting info, you can get a round about grasp on whats going on. I've been following this conflict for years, even more so when I realised just how much of a role Britain has had in this conflict.

I know I have a responsability for the actions of my past governments. While sitting one night outside the Damascus Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem I was challenged by a Palestinian who was angry about what's going on in Palestine. I told him that I accept reponsability for the actions of my people and that if he wishes to slay me I would be all too willing to allow him to do so. I bowed my head and he walked off.

All most want is a return to the 1966 borders, A land to call their own and freedom to live their lives.

The way I see it is that unless the governments who created the State of Israel enforce the rules of it's creation. And the governments that back Israel reel them in. There will be no peace. And every day there is blood shed, it will be mine and your hands that are covered in the blood of the innocent.

Apparently there actually was an outcry (well, as much of an outcry as 'good guys' like Israel or the US ever have to face for anything they do) over the US using WP in Iraq. Depleted uranium too, of course, but there was a kerfuffle over the use of WP in their attack on Fallujah (and no, I'm not confusing this with Saddam Hussein's alleged massacres in Fallujah years before). The US military first said they used WP just for screening smoke, the way BorderC explained. Then they said they fired it to provide illumination at night (which seems to me to be an odd use for a smoke device, but maybe BorderC can tell us more about this).

Ultimately when the UK newspaper The Independent presented evidence that they had used it for its toxic, anti-personnel properties, the US military took back its previous stories and said "well, yes, but we only targeted fighters with it." From the way we can see the stuff going in over Gaza, this is a pretty dubious statement. The stuff 'pops' above ground and showers down over a wide area. As the Israelis use it anyway. Pretty hard to call that precision targeting. But then I've never fired it or tried to run away from it.

Maybe it only seeks out people with "too much hate in their hearts"?

As part of the controversy, here's a description from the magazine Field Artillery where some of the US soldiers involved in the Fallujah episode described their use of WP:

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions . . . and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against insurgents in trench lines and spider holes . . . We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents using WP to flush them out and high explosive shells (HE) to take them out."<!-/Quote-!>

If they are using WP on civilians, then yes, that's bad. But, how is it different than HE?

It's as precise as any indirect projectile is. Moreso now that it is computerized. It doesn't rain on people... it's a cloud. That's why it can be used for screening. Most of it goes up in the air and eventually dissipates. Do you think they would prefer HE instead?

And we never used WP for illumination. There are illumination rounds for that. Though, there are still reasons to screen at night. Especially in the desert.

Depleted uranium is used to penertrate armoured vehicles, as Hamas dont have these I pressume the isrealis wont use any/many.
Depleted uranium does not make bangs bigger, it is a very dense material that is better able to penertrate armour than steel. They may well use it to attack bunkers etc.
Terrorist use child to carry suicide bomb...no complaints...israeli kills a child and we have screams of complaint.
Both sides are of course wrong but please dont forget hamas etc have little reguard for life and are more than able to parade dead children for the sake of good PR and then go and strap a bomb to one.
My saving israel uses too much force, I mean the US army I hope would not target the enemy with indirct shell if they are next to a school but use more precise force such as a sniper..the isralis will however just bomb them and civilian casualites are excepted. they have become desensitised to war.
Hamas however will deliberaly target civilians to cause terror.
Without Hamas Israel would have no justification to contiune their actions, they would have to withdraw. The US would not be able to continue to support them.

prophecy prevents peace. Christians and Muslims are so wrapped up in there dogmatic belief system that they forget the truths. In both religions, killing of one's own kind is explicetely shunned. Thus, there are other evils at play. Greed, ignorance, hatred and suffering. Untill there is a social maturation, war will never end.

Its all Hamas fault because they decided to attack Israel and publicly told everyone about it. Soooo duh none of this is Israels fault. Yall must of forgot in war there are no rules. The citizens of Gaza new that Hamas was gonna attack Israel they could of left then before the attacks dduuuhhhhhhhh!!!!!

I appluad Israel for their decision to invade. They have taken alot of crap from Palestians in the area. Especially back in 1960. I can't wait until Obama becomes the official president cause when he does and decides to send Marines out there to help Israel, I'll be one of the first to sign up.

FYI, when God sent out his armies to conquere a city they would either burn the whole city to the ground with everyone still inside burning to death.

THERES NO SUCH THING AS MERCY IN WAR!!!!!
IF YOU DON"T WANT TO DIE THEN GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!
MOVING FROM ONE PLACE TO THE OTHER DOESN'T ANY MONEY ALL YOU NEED IS YOUR LEGS AND FEET AND ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT TO TAKE WITH YOU DUUUUHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

"Terrorists use children to carry suicide bombs - no complaint. Israelis kill a child and we have screams of complaint."

???? The whole world denounces Hamas terror. It's Israeli terror that passes with little or no comment. It's only finally getting a bit of attention right now because they've really outdone themselves in brutality and bloodshed. (A UN school - keep up the good work guys!)

Man, the world condemns Hamas even for stuff it does NOT do, for example breaking the recent ceasefire. Israel broke it, not Hamas. But Israel's PR machine is so deeply entrenched, especially in the US where the Israeli view dominates all the media, that you never hear anyone articulate this simple truth.

On BBC's "HardTalk" today, for example, they "grilled" the Israeli ambassador to the UK. The host did manage to give the guy a genuinely hard time, which was nice to see, but he made no comment when the ambassador blamed Hamas for unilaterally breaking the truce. Israel has managed to get this lie universally accepted.

I don't call that anti-Israel bias.

You "presume Israel won't use depleted uranium" because Hamas has no armored vehicles. But depleted uranium has other effects besides easing the penetration of armor. Don't forget it's radioactive. Iraqis are still suffering the effects of US depleted uranium munitions.

Let me ask you something. You say that without Hamas, Israel would have no excuse to continue the attack. Okay then: so why can't it work the other way around? Why shouldn't Israel stop its attacks and leave Hamas with no pretext for firing rockets? Shouldn't that work just as well according to you?

Grand Poobah: I agree. Religion is BS. Worse than BS, it's a major problem standing in the way of human advancement.

Bibab Schmeagol? She is a topless dancer I think...


Anyway I went and had a great day working outdoors and it looks like you gentlemen had a great Left wing mutual masturbation session. Anything solved? No? I am shocked!

I expected a grand peace plan when I returned.

The only way Hamas will stop firing rockets in Israel is if THERE IS NO ISRAEL!!!

Don't yall get it. Its in the Quaran, ALL MUSLIMS WANT ISRAEL TO BE GONE. NOT ONLY THAT BUT ALL JEWS MUST DIE ALSO. THATS WHAT THE QUARAN TEACHES. If I'm not mistaken.

Without religion why are we alive then? We didn't just appeared hear.

The grand peace plan as you requested....
1) Al and I shall agree to differ.
2) Al will deactivate the suicide bombing kids and send them back to school.
3) I will stop bombing said schools to take out the future bomber recruits.
4) Al shall research depleted uranium and discover its very limited radioactivity.
5) Al shall realise Hamas seeks Israels distruction and needs no excuse to attack israel. Its mere existance is reason enough.
6) I shall except some israelis are in fact Hamas agents that have infiltrated the IDF with the aim of provocing the conflict via indiscriminate attacks on Gaza.
7) Gaius brutus enters reconditioning to deprogramme his anti islamic views.
8) Johanas posts video of bibab schmeagol so we can assess the validity of her pressumed occupation.

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

Its all Hamas fault because they decided to attack Israel and publicly told everyone about it. Soooo duh none of this is Israels fault.<!-/Quote-!>

I honestly thought you were being sarcastic, GB, because that's such a load of bullshit...

All I can say is, another buddy for Farmer Bob and Vali!!

Bebop Schmeagol is a he, not a she. Take a walk on the wild side...

"It's in the Quran - all Muslims want Israel to be gone."

Man, this guy is gooood....!

"Very limited radioactivity" - whatever. Enough to generate cancer clusters around the sites where depleted uranium munitions were used, not only in Iraq but also in the Balkans.

Peace, man.

But no way am I sending my kiddies to school after what happened today.