OPINION OF UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! (White Giant)

Let's analyse this, shall we?

Guantanamo bay - Even people who've worked there, from the soldiers themselves to the lawyers who represent those who are unlawfully kept there aknowledge that torture occurs there.

Read into it a little bit. You'll find quite a bit of factual evidence listing the nature of the human rights violations occuring there.

And yes, capitalism is by it's very nature oppressive. But then, so is the racial segregation which still exists in the US. The right wing mindset of the US governmental institutions pretty much ensure that it stays that way, because, as all Americans know, "socialism" is "evil."

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Official FBI definition of terrorism:

"Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives." <!-/Quote-!>

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From 1950 to 1953, and from 1965 to 1974 the United States of America committed the brutal genocide of literally MILLIONS of civilian men, women and children in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Korea.

Unarmed women and old men were bayoneted, helpless children and even babies were blown away with M-16s and grenades, countless women and young girls were sodomized, raped and murdered by U.S. Army soldiers. These horrible things happened in many massacres like the ones at My Lai and Thanh Phong in Vietnam and No Gun Ri in Korea — while U.S. Air Force bomber crews spent years in wholesale slaughter of civilian people from the air. <!-/Quote-!>

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During the Vietnam Genocide there was even an official CIA program of systematic terror, torture and mass-murder called Operation Phoenix.<!-/Quote-!>

And then there's the whole Israel thing, which involves the ritual and most brutal terrorism of Palestinian civilians. Not just potential terrorists, but innocent men, women and children as well.

As for world war two, this myth that the US stepped in and saved the world from the Nazis needs to be dispelled. The facts are far more complex (and compelling) than that.

The Soviets were conducting something of a trade-off between land and time. This is well documented, in the speeches of Stalin himself, that they were allowing themselves the time to build up sufficient force to repel the German invaders. Specifically, waiting on the brutal Russian winter.

Russia, for one, was never in any real danger of falling to the Nazis. They simply relocated their heavy industry to the east, well out of the reach of the Nazi forces.

As for America's "decisive" intervention, there is no doubt that America sped up the war. But the tides were already turning by the time the US got involved.

The turning point for the war on the Western Front was just after the battle of Britain, when the Nazis changed their tactics from attacking the RAF to attacking industrial targets, such as the cities. With the RAF still intact (and actually having more planes at the end of the Battle than it did at the beginning) Britain was in no danger of falling.

The first major breakthrough was the British breaking of the enigma, several months before Germany declared war on the US. It allowed Britain to intercept and understand the Nazi military transmissions, locating naval forces and u-boats, and save the convoys, changing 80% losses into an 80% survival rate. Britain was no longer in danger of starving.

Also take into account that British munitions productions when America joined the fight were greater than that of the US. Britain was holding it's own, though taking a pasting from bombing raids.

In North Africa, victory at the second battle of El Alamein by the British, Australians, Indians, New Zealanders, Greek, Free French and South Africans which significantly altered the flow of the war - opening up the possible invasion of Italy, and thus the first landing by allied forces on mainland Europe.

And, when the Normandy invasion occured, there were some 156,000 military personnel involved in the initial invasion. 2/3 of these were British.

And finally, at wars end, when Churchill ordered the British to blockade the Danish peninsula, preventing the Soviets from advancing into western Europe.

No, the second world war was not won by America. They did not save Europe from Nazis or Communists. They helped greatly, but the tide had already turned.

As for Iraq, I guess it was alright to supply them with weapons when they were on the side of the West, right? Who knows?

Nazi Germany's mistakes were declaring war on Russia. The moment they opened up that second front, they were certain to lose.

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So no, the US does NOT put up with countries that attack their sovereign neighbors. If we don't no one else would.<!-/Quote-!>

Don't make me laugh. Let's go all the way back to 1776 and start there, shall we?

The systematic slaughter of native American tribes as the US expanded westwards. Exploitation, oppression, genocide.

The regular wars of aggression conducted against the US's sovereign neighbours of Canada (then British ruled) specifically, and to a lesser extent, Mexico. Mostly for land.

World War 2, in which the US declared war on neither Imperial Japan nor Nazi Germany, both of which had been expanding into their sovereign neighbours for the larger part of a decade. It took Japan and Germany declaring war on the US before America would no longer "put up with countries that attack their sovereign neighbors" as you put it.

Whereas the UK was in against the Nazis when they invaded Poland.

If you've read all of that, and now take the time to go out and conduct a little research of your own, perhaps you will uncover quite a few other untruths about the way you view your nation and it's place within the world. Specifically, the second world war. Don't look to historians alone for your answers. Read some of the major players speeches, direct accounts of battle, military information, etc.

I'm sure by this point you see me as anti-American. It's that whole "With us or against us" thing. Well I'm neither with America or against it. I'm just trying to set the record straight. Comments such as

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the US does NOT put up with countries that attack their sovereign neighbors. If we don't no one else would.<!-/Quote-!>

are ignorant of both history and the sacrifices made by millions of non-Americans in the defence of theirs and others' way of life.

People and nations across the world have been fighting for their right to freedom since long before America was founded (my own included), and they will be long after America is nothing more than a few pages in the history books.

"Justice" and "Freedom" are relative terms. And they are a weak and feeble excuse to justify yourself as righteous and correct. Imposing our own moral code on others, and our way of life, is oppressive and hypocritical. And it's something that every human being is guilty of.

It has to stop.

I look forwards to your riposte. May it be both passionate and thoughtful.

But that's all I have to say on such matters.

So tell me, Zeta. How many civilians did I bayonet, rape, shoot, sodomize, and murder during my 2 tours in Vietnam?

You posted quotes. Were they from this thread or some other source?

Sorry. 26 years in uniform. That touched a nerve.

Zet, don't make me laugh.

First I am not about to start any kind real detailed argument over America's place in the world anymore.

This has been argued so many fricken times, it isn't even funny, especially the WWII thing.

NO WHERE does ANY American claim "socialism is evil." We are, believe it or not, quite socialist ourselves. We just happen to have Capitalism there.

About our capitalist economy:

NOWHERE ELSE in the entire world does a person born in a poor family have as good a chance of becoming rich and successful as in the US. A por person may have to work harder, that's a given, but poor people are not nearly as "stuck" in their class as most people would believe.

Anyway, it is Communism that is "evil." There IS quite a bit of difference.

Actually, 1 bit of WW2 history you got wrong:

North Africa: As I recall, it was the Americans, led by General Dwight Eisenhower (later, the 34th president of the US), that led the fight through North Africa. Then we hit up El Alamein.

I could give you a very detailed history of the battle of North Africa if you like. The Brits and Company were falling apart after many offensives, and counter offensives against the Italians.

Don't even get me started on Normandy either. Between the American Navy and the 101st Airborne, we fought smart, not hard. Look it up.

The whole Native American wars of aggression:

No other country has admitted terrible mistakes that have been made as the US has. WE HAVE NEVER TRIED TO KEEP SECRET, OR DOWNPLAY THE TERRIBLE PERIOD OF WHEN THE AMERICAN ARMY WAS SLAUGHERTING THE NATIVES BY THE THOUSANDS!!!!!!

Actually, only the Germans, perhaps, preach more about their mistakes in the 20th century, then we do about ours in the 19th. The point is, the English HAVE NEVER admitted they were EVER wrong in ANYTHING. They seem to believe that they had the right to go about conquering the world, ans subjegating all other peoples. WHY do you think the American Revolution was fought???

Same thing goes with the whole slavery idea as well. we have NEVER tried to downplay the slavery thing. In fact, hundreds of thousands of Americans died to try to end slavery. (Please, DO NOT tell me those Americans died just to save the Union. The frist year and half of that war, it is true. The rest of the war was fought to preserve the Union, AND to try to end slavery. There are MANY journals, and correspondence that have been written about that very subject, before Lincoln's famous speech.)

Same thing goes for the whole civil rights movement for African Americans. They fought for their rights, and they won! With the help of President Kennedy, I might add.

Vietnam: Bob already said 'nuff bout that.

Guantanamo Bay: YOU, SIR, would NEVER have even HEARD of what was going on at Guantanamo Bay if it weren't for all the hype that AMERICANS were putting out there of what happened. The torture of those TERRORISTS was NOT BY ANY MEANS SANCTIONED BY THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!!!

In fact, there was this HUGE debate over the use of waterboarding after the whole torture thing came out. And waterboarding does no physical harm!

Oh MAN, I could go on, but like I said, I am not going to argue over this incredibly STUPID idea that Americans are somehow responsible for all the terrible things that have happened in human history...from wars, to genocides, to slavery....sorry, but I do take it that you are Anti-American, and no, I do not at all believe the whole "you are with us, or against us" notion. Bush is an idiot!

But, when you are posting on a thread (I know this is only a stupid forum on the internet, and no matter what I say, even with supporting evidence, it is not going to change anyone's mind, nor solve any kind of conflict. So really, there is no point in posting at all I don't think.) Anyway, when someone is talking that much trash about any nation, your only going to inflame the people of that nation. Most other nationalities would retaliate with far worse/harsher words, and consider you an enemy right on the spot if you were going on a smear campaign about other countries.

Look at China: No foreign reporters in China are allowed to say anything negative about that country. Need I say more??

I already posted too much here, and will go no further than this line:

AMERICANS ARE NOT EVIL WE DID NOT INVENT WAR WE DID NOT INVENT CHILD SACRIFICE WE DID NOT INVENT GENOCIDE WE DID NOT INVENT SLAVERY WE TRY TO PUT A STOP TO THESE TERRIBLE THINGS WE ARE HUMNAN BUT ARE THE ONLY NATION OTHER THAN GERMANY TO TRY TO RECTIFY THE WRONGS WE HAVE COMMITTED ENGLAND WOULD HAVE LOST WORLD WAR TWO IF NOT FOR AMERICAN SUPPORT IT WAS CALLED LEND LEASE WITH OUT LEND LEASE ENGLAND WOULD HAVE FALLEN FAR BEFORE THEY INVENTED RADAR WE PREVENTED MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF LIVES FROM BEING LOST BY ENTERING THE WAR WHEN WE DID AND YES RUSSIA WOULD HAVE TAKEN OVER GERMANY COMPLETELY AND MAYBE EVEN CONTInUED THEIR MARCH EAST IF WE DID NOT STOP THEM AT THE WEST GERMAN BORDER THE REST OF ASIA INCLUDING JAPAN WOULD BE UNDER EITHER THE RED SOVIET OR RED CHINAS FLAG RIGHT NOW IF NOT FOR KOREA AND VIETNAM VIETNAM WAS CONDUCTED POORLY I ADMIT BUT WAS STILL PRETTY NECESSARY TO "SAVE THE WORLD FOR DEMOCRACY" AND YES DEMOCRACY IS THE BEST FORM OF GOVERNMENT EVER INVENTED AND EVERYONE WHO LIVES UNDER A REAL DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY HAS MANY PRIVELEDGES THAT PEOPLE OF OTHER COUNTRIES THAT DO NAT HAVE TRULY DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS RECOGNIZE WE INVENTED FREEDOM OF RELIGION THIS IS THE VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY FIRST NATION TO COME UP WITH THE IDEA OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM SO WE MUST BE THE MOST OPEN MINDED PEOPLE IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE WORLD PEOPLE HAVE COME TO AMERICA FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD BY THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS TO ESCAPE POVERTY AND OPPRESSION AND TO SEEK ACTUALY FREEDOMS IN ORDER TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES PEOPLE ARE STILL FLOCKING TO THE AMERICAN SHORES TO CONTINUE ESCAPING THOSE THINGS WE HAVE TO ERECT WALLS AROUND MEXICO BECAUSE OUT NATION CANNOT SUPPORT THE FLOOD OF PEOPLES COMING HERE ANY LONGER WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF RESOURCES TO HELP AND SUPPORT THESE PEOPLE THE POPULATION OF THIS COUNTRY ROSE BY MORE THAN TWENTY MILLION IN LESS THAN TEN YEARS SO WE ARE STILL DOING SOMETHING RIGHT

There, I am done!

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About our capitalist economy:

NOWHERE ELSE in the entire world does a person born in a poor family have as good a chance of becoming rich and successful as in the US. A por person may have to work harder, that's a given, but poor people are not nearly as "stuck" in their class as most people would believe.<!-/Quote-!>

Yes, about your economy; it's called the Anglo-Saxon model, based heavily on the economic modely pioneered by the natives of the British Isles (The Angles and Saxons, surprisingly enough) during the mid to late middle ages.

It's the same system they have had in Western Europe for centuries.

And I think you will find that the states around the world which offer the most fluid class structures, and thus potential for movement between the various classes are the places like Australia and Norway. The best representation of this is the Human Development Index. Iceland, Norway, Australia, Canada, Ireland being the top five in the world.

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North Africa: As I recall, it was the Americans, led by General Dwight Eisenhower (later, the 34th president of the US), that led the fight through North Africa. Then we hit up El Alamein.

I could give you a very detailed history of the battle of North Africa if you like. The Brits and Company were falling apart after many offensives, and counter offensives against the Italians.<!-/Quote-!>

An intriguing point of view. Please do recount the history of the war in North Africa.

Funnily enough, the victory of El Alamein - which is well documented as being the end point of Axis progress in North Africa - had nothing to do with the Americans. So I don't know where this "We hit up El Alamein" comes in.

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The Western Desert Campaign, also known as the Desert War was the initial stage of the North African Campaign of The Second World War.

From the start, the Western Desert Campaign was a continuous back-and-forth struggle. In September 1940, the first major move was initiated by the Italian forces in Libya against British and Commonwealth forces stationed in Egypt.

This move was quickly halted and, in December 1940, the British made a counter move. What started as a five-day raid and turned into Operation Compass resulted in massive losses for the Italian forces.

The Italian's Axis partner, Germany, provided a contingent of ground forces (Wehrmacht Heer) and air forces (Luftwaffe) to prevent a total collapse. But soon Germany became the dominant partner.

Axis forces would twice more launch large-scale assaults against the Allies. Each time the Axis forces pushed the Allied forces back to Egypt. But both times the Allies retaliated and regained the ground lost. On a second (and last) Axis push, the Allies were driven far into Egypt. However, the Allies recovered at El Alamein and then managed to drive the Axis forces west and completely out of Libya.

The Axis forces were driven back until they reached Tunisia when the "Western Desert Campaign" effectively ended and the Eighth Army and Rommel's forces became involved in the "Tunisia Campaign" which had begun in November 1942.

The Western Desert Campaign was heavily influenced by the availability of supplies and transport. The ability of the Allied forces, operating from besieged Malta to interdict Axis convoys was critical. Allied interdictions denied the German commander, Erwin Rommel, the fuel and the reinforcements he desperately needed at critical moments.<!-/Quote-!>

Sounds more like a stalemate than the so called "Falling Apart" that you mention. But I would still like to hear your version of events.

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Don't even get me started on Normandy either. Between the American Navy and the 101st Airborne, we fought smart, not hard. Look it up.<!-/Quote-!>

Perhaps you should go back and read what I said about it? I did not for a moment say that the Americans weren't involved. I'm just making it clear that they weren't alone. That others made sacrifices too.

As for the whole apology to the natives thing,

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No other country has admitted terrible mistakes that have been made as the US has.<!-/Quote-!>

Look up the British apologies to the descendants of those who suffered during the slave trade. Or the Australian apologies to the natives of their great country.

Social guilt for past atrocities is something many western powers share. And many have apologised repeatedly for their past.

I think it shows that some of us are learning from past mistakes.

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Vietnam: Bob already said 'nuff bout that.<!-/Quote-!>

Indeed he did. But I fear he misunderstood my point.

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Guantanamo Bay: YOU, SIR, would NEVER have even HEARD of what was going on at Guantanamo Bay if it weren't for all the hype that AMERICANS were putting out there of what happened.<!-/Quote-!>

Actually, we learned about it largely due to the European citizens who were being held there unlawfully. Most notably the British citizens who were held there for the best part of a decade without charge. Not because of any noble stand against such a place.

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The torture of those TERRORISTS was NOT BY ANY MEANS SANCTIONED BY THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!!! <!-/Quote-!>

Terrorists? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Most of the prisoners held there have had no trial, little legal representation and no protection of their human rights.

Yes, some no doubt are terrorists. But as we've seen, time and again, most have committed no crime of terror. The evidence generally proves to be either false, or circumstantial at best.

Not sanctioned by the government, eh? Well, perhaps the army down in Cuba is acting of it's own accord. I doubt it, but hey, you never know?

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Oh MAN, I could go on, but like I said, I am not going to argue over this incredibly STUPID idea that Americans are somehow responsible for all the terrible things that have happened in human history...from wars, to genocides, to slavery....sorry, but I do take it that you are Anti-American, and no, I do not at all believe the whole "you are with us, or against us" notion. Bush is an idiot!<!-/Quote-!>

I haven't once said that America (nor Americans, for that matter) are responsible for all bad things in the world. Perhaps we should revisit my initial point;

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America generally isn't hated. Just the hypocrisy and "oppression", depending on your point of view.

Like the lectures to other nations over human rights. Or condemning wars of aggression. Or condemning state-sponsered terrorism.

The world isn't black and white; good vs evil; with us or against us. It's about time America realised this.<!-/Quote-!>

I was defining the main reason why so many around the world are percieved to "hate" the US. Not stating that the US is somehow worse or the worst in terms of moral standing, but rather that the "Holier than thou" attitude which the US government (like many other Western nations, I hastily add - UK, France, Germany, ETC) reguarly adopts when dealing with other nations around the world is the cause of the vast majority of the US's problems around the globe. It also undermines the US's position and the strength of her argument, no matter how right she may be.

Lecturing China on human rights with institutions such as Gitmo in operation, largely unopposed by the government of the US, lends an air of hypocrisy, don't you think?

And lecturing Russia on wars of aggression without due cause is just as bad, because you just know that the Russians will start talking about US ventures abroad - such as Iraq.

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Look at China: No foreign reporters in China are allowed to say anything negative about that country. Need I say more?? <!-/Quote-!>

Try tuning in to the BBC and listening to some of their reports from places like Beijing. Undoubtedly, China's record - whilst not perfect - is improving.

As far as being Anti-American, that couldn't be further from the truth. This just happens to be the topic about America, and I'm taking up the counterpoint to several arguments posed above. Were this a topic about the UK's own "Holier than thou" attitude (You're welcome to start one) then my response would be just as critical as this one, and along very simmilar lines.

Regarding your final wall of upper-case text:

I'm not claiming Americans are evil. It is not my intention to try and tar any particular subculture with a single brush. Everybody is different.

Slavery: Much of the enforcement to halt the slave trade came from the British Empire, specifically in Western Europe.

Slave Trade Act, 1807 - pretty good reading.

As I recall, it took a civil war almost 60 years later for America to abolish the trade.

Not having a dig. Just laying out some facts which may interest you.

Radar was invented several years before the start of World War 2. Theory for it existed as far back as 1904, and the first patent was taken out in 1935.

Lend-lease: The renting out of British military bases in exchange for access to resources from 1941-1945, in which Britain recieved $31.4 billion in "rent" for access to her world network of military bases in the West Indies and Newfoundland.

It was a deliberate effort on the part of America to avoid the appearance of intervention in the war. Lend-Lease wasn't so much of an act in the name of freedom as a trade agreement. Much like the loans the US currently holds with the Chinese. Though I doubt anybody will be thanking the Chinese for their contribuitions to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Which is a shame, really.

Saving the world for democracy?

Sorry, but I have to quote one of my favourite books here:

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Germany, Italy and Japan versus Britain, Russia and the United states. Fascist Totalitarianism v Liberal Democracy.
"What about Russia?"
"Shhh!"<!-/Quote-!>

John O'Farrell - An Utterly Impartial History of Britain (Or, 2000 years of Upper Class Idiots In Charge) - A fantastic read. I highly reccommend it, if you like your history with a dash of humour.

At the time, World War 2 wasn't about freedom or anything like that. World War 2 began due to treaty obligations, and ended the way it did because Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan bit off more than they could chew. Not until the Soviets happened upon the terrible atrocities of the camps was the true horror revealed.

The privileges and rights that you enjoy are based on something called English Common Law. Also fascinating to read about.

But freedom of religion was not a new idea when the US stumbled across it. The very concept can be traced back to Renaissance Europe. It went to America with the British, French and Spanish Empires.

Yes, America is a grand defender of those who seek to live within her boundaries. But, to put it into a context of populational ratios, the number of immigrants moving to the US to live is not really much greater than France or Germany, nor the British Isles for that matter.

I agree. America is very open minded. And it's a fine democracy. But to claim that it's the most open minded place, ever, seems somewhat counter-intuitive to that statement, surely?

Compare the US to just about any or the EU member states, and you'll find little difference in the freedoms or rights which both peoples - Americans and Europeans - enjoy. As I've said, American law lends it's heritage to English Common Law, and between the two political entities the sharing of ideas, ideals and ways of life has reached such an extent that they can both be clearly seen to influence one-another.

But that's a topic for another debate.

Having said all of that, I'd like to reiterate that depite how you may interpret my words, they are not intended with any degree of venom. They're just a summary of various facts to which I've been exposed, seasoned with both the culture in which I have grown up, and my own opinion. These are the biases to which we're all exposed, and they lend themselves to interesting debate.

I am not Anti-American. I've said before and I say it again that were this topic about the UK, France, Germany, China, Russia, India, Australia, etc, then I would be more than willing to speak in much the same manner as I do here. This just happens to be the US thread.

What I detest is the attitude expressed by most western powers that we're right because we have some sort of moral supremacy over other nations, when in fact we're just as guilty of (insert crime here) as any of them.

I see you love your country. I admire that, and I understand entirely. But no country is without fault, no matter how much we may wish it.

I hope you can see that, and make it this far through my post having read it all, rather than simply scanning it for fodder with which to attack various points I've tried to make.

With respect,
Zeta

Zeta. I would not disagree with your criticisms. In point of fact, I have many complaints about this country, our culture, and at times, our political conduct on the world stage.

HOWEVER, what I do find fault with is the unrealistic comparisons of our nation to the truly horrific states of past and present. The differences are vast.
The "torture" at Gitmo would be considered friendly interview at many civil police stations in much of the world. I don't agree with current policy, these individuals are POW's, but their treatment has hardly risen to the level of "torture". Total lack of perspective.

That is the issue with many of your points. Valid, but overstated.

Words like genocide get tossed around and that damages credibility. Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot defined that word quite well. Applying it to American actions is gross mischaracterization.

Words have meaning.

You have an excellent grasp for the flow of history. Excellent.

Just apply perspective to that knowledge in your application of moral judgements.

Yeah. That was exactly what I was thinking what Bob said.

That whole crappy line of "Caps" was meant to be taken as a gross over-exageration, which apparently was lost to ya somehow, zet. The point I was subtly trying to make was to show how terribly over-exagerated you make the US's so-called "genocides," and "tortures," and "violation of human rights," and "hipocracies."

You should know by now, I should hope, that I am generally not one to right in caps, but when I do, it is usually to either drive home a point, or, in the case of my "wall of caps" to express exageration/sarcasm.

The countries we put pressure on and lecture the most are nations such as China, most of the African states, and the Mid-East.

About that article you posted (I stopped reading about halfway through, because I really feel I got the point)

What that article that you put on there failed to mention was that America, led by Eisenhower, was IN Africa by 1942. The article only said the word "allies" after they mentioned "by 1942."

BELIEVE ME! I KNOW for a fact that America was HEAVILY engaged in Africa against Germany's Afrika Corps. And that we are the ones that led the assault on El Alamein.

I'll tell ya a little story as to WHY I know this to be FACT.

My grandfather is from Palermo Sicily (In fact, that city happens to be named after my family.)

Now, the Sicilians, as you should so well know, resent being ruled by Italy. They especially resented being ruled by a dictator from Italy.

There were two Italian armies. One that opposed Mussolini, and one that was under Mussolini's control.

The army that opposed Mussolini consisted mostly of Sicilians. They were called "partisans," as well as the "Underground Italian Army." They pulled off secret missions. Sabotage, that sort of thing. They also pulled off missions into Germany to help rescue a couple of Jews here and there.

When my grandfather got word that the Americans had landed in N. Africa to fight against the axis, there was literally a celebration all over Sicily. Same thing happened all over Europe, including the UK, because EVERYONE KNEW the war was going to over a lot sooner!

My grandfather and the other men, women, and children in his group eventually met up with Eisenhower's army. The Americans used their knowledge, and expertise to find the best places to do battle. They, in effect, were pretty much scouts. They participated in the battle of El Alamein with Americans, British and Co. Eventually, near the end of the war, my grandfather finally met his future wife (my grandmother of course!) in Rome. My granfather eventually met up with one of the Americans who he happened to have met, and became friends with, on the battlefield after the war. The man also used to work in the State Department. The man (I cannot remember his name by gawd!) was able to secure an exit visa for my grandfather and his wife to America. And so that is how my mom's side of the family came here.

Also, America DID invent freedom of religion. That was unheard of in England in 1776. The country has been almost torn apart over the issue of slavery, even from the very beginning, when the "nation" was under the Articles of Confederation. In fact, it was such a bitter topic, that discussions on the new Constitution almost came to a complete stop over.

Many time beyond that, the Civil War could have been started far before 1860. It just happened in 1860 because the pressures were becoming too great to deal with it in any other manner.

A thing about so-called British "freedoms" before the Americans re-invented democracy:

Funny thing that: The English people, as well as people from all over Europe came flocking to America to escape persecutions, and discriminations, and also to be able to own their own property. Under British customs, when was born in a rich, land owning family, that person will remain in that class. One who is born poor, there is almost nothing they can do to improve their lot in life, even if it wasn't illegal for them to do so. America changed all of that. Anyone who works hard, and has a dream, can BECOME someone! Only reason why you only hear about how great English Common Law was, is because the people who had the money wrote the books. The people with the money and land, ganed these right because Parliament faught against the king way back when, and secured those right for the people they represented. It has been that way for hundreds of years, and only pretty slowly started to become more liberal AFTER America gained her independance.

And yes, I did take quite a bit of offense to your words simply because it sounded like you were trying to compare us to people who have always been pure evil in this world. I really do not think you realize the impact this country has truly had over the past 150 years or so in spreading democracy and freedom everywhere. And denying that fact is not giving enough credit to the American heroes who have fought and died to secure these freedoms for every human.

Besides, America has largely been pretty isolationist for the first half of its history (with the exception of 1898), until those stupid stupid wars in Europe would continually pull this country in. After all that the world has been through in the 20th century, we are the only country with the power and assertiveness to make sure history does not repeat itself. The UN is supposed to do that, but it is too damn corrupt, and other countries do not contribute nearly enough resources for it to be effective. So we end up taking up the whole police role.

If we do nothing, we are just rich greedy bastords who are insensitive to people who are suffering around the world. If we do something, we are nosey asshats who get involved in things that ahve nothing to do with us. Damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

That's exactly what I was looking for.

Thank you both, FarmerBob and Michael Morrison, for taking the time to do what you've done.

All the best.

hey im an american an damn proud of it if u think were racist check again!

Hey Zet:

Are you talking about the debate/discussion we carried on here? If you are, it was acutally kind of fun. I learned some things I never really knew

Debate often encourages one to learn things which exist outside of their "conventional" knowledge and comfort zone. Its when people start taking it personally that problems arise.

Though some of the facts are sketchy, and one or two are erroneous in the extreme (Second Battle of El Alamein, for example), I've learned a fair bit about America's role in the world, it's take on history, and how her citizens view themselves as a part of it.

I've always taken exception to the view that America is the "last bastion of freedom" or that the American interpretation of the world and particularly it's views on what constitutes liberty is what everybody should aspire to.

Freedom is a relative term, and to most it simply means the right to live without external (international) intervention in domestic policy. For others - and this is what I believe Americans to mean when they refer to "liberty" - it means not having the state interfere with private affairs.

For me, freedom is the right of self-determination. A right for which my own country has fought for since as long ago as Roman times, and no doubt long before that too.

Everybody else will have a differing version of what freedom or liberty means to them. I would hope for these differences in interpretation to be the basis of any argument, rather than any misplaced sense of nationalism and defence thereof.

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hey im an american an damn proud of it if u think were racist check again!<!-/Quote-!>

Racism exists everywhere. Discrimination is human nature. It is ingrained in society's nature, no matter how equal we wish it to be.

Many healthy judgements of human nature are labeled "racist".

While prejudging someone soley on the basis of skin color or ethnicity is the epitome of ignorance, making ration judgements of cultures or societies is not.

There are plenty of places in the world that I wouldn't want to raise a dog much less a human being. All cultures are not equal.

That said, people must be respected as individuals.

Yes, and "racism" is actually a survival trait for most animals, particularly humans. It is virtually impossible to completely wipe out all racist preconceptions you have, no matter how liberal one is.

As for "freedoms," I do not believe Americans are the most free people in the world. Our live are controlled more and more by the corporate hive. Corporations try to control every single aspect of their employee's lives.

For instance, I work at Arby's Roast Beef part time, just got hired there the other week, trying to get through my last year in college. They are trying to tell me I am not allowed to hang out with, or date, any other employees! My question is: HOW THE HELL CAN ARBYS TELL ME WITH WHOM I CAN ASSOCIATE WITH???? THAT is one of THE most basic of American rights! I literally told the head manager "well, screw that! I am 25 years old, and an American, If I want to hang out, or date anyone who works here, I have every right to do so!"

Boy, did SHE get angry when I told her that! lol, I told her she has no rights to interfere in my personal life, and I am willing to use my family's attorney to press the issue if need be!

America is TOO capitalist for my tastes. I would love nothing more than to see the Wal-Marts of the nation be compeletly destroyed! I refuse to shop at wal-mart, no matter how little money I have. I am thinking of moving to Europe....possibly to Italy....in the future.

BTW, I just got back from vacation. That's why I have not been around.

LOL Just don't be suprised, Michael, when you find out what real corruption is. We Americans take many things for granted.

Well, the only reason why I WOULD move out of this country, even to Europe, would because of a decent paying job. I would love to live in Italy for a while. Been there twice. Spent a whole summer there at my family's house in Palermo.

BTW, I got written up at work! The paper says "for being disrespectful to my superior." I refused to sign it. I told them, first off, the head manager is NOT my "superior" in any way. (I hate that word!) Second of all, I was not disrespectful. I merely stated my right as an American. I have the right to assembly, says it right in the constitution. Nobody, and nothing is going to take my rights away without a fight.

I also have the right to free speech, so if I have a problem with management, I am going to tell them so. I can be downright bullheaded.

Needless to say, I have been filling out new applications in my area lol.

American people are good the government is crazy. ITs like one of those crazy annoying players that likes invading and nuking C3 countries next to your own territory etc and thinks he controls it all.

I couldn't live in the US. I mean, they have a red, blue and white flag. How gay is that?!

i live in the USA, and i have to say, im not liking the way our government sticks its nose it hard working revolutionaries' business. how is the NPA or PKK supposed to get things done?

My opinion was:
PRO-KYOTO
ANTI-YANKIE

Until I met some Americans in Jerusalem. Now it's:
PRO-KYOTO
ANTI-UNITED STATES ADMINISTRATION

Britain is not a superpower at all. and for everyone's information in the American revolution when we americans got aid from the french navy the British were being aided by German hessians. The british had a blockade of ships and won most of the big city battles. and yet 13 colonies not even the full power of what america is today defeated the redcoats. in ww1 britain and france along with germany and russia went apeshit over a litte incident that occurred in austria-hungary. because of all there promises they had made to their alliances. In ww2 france was conquered by the germans although a little piece in the south was given to french traitors. As for britain it was pushed all the way back. when pearl harbor was attacked you had to have known Churchill had a smile on his face. It was the only way you were gonna get americans in the war. And when we did that's when we started to win. Who was the Supreme commander... oh was it Dwight D. Eisenhower an American. I wont say America did everything though Russia did help too.

Sir Smokes Alot.
We honour our promises.

Britain knew war was not to be taken lightly after WW1. But when the line was crossed they did not hesitate to help their fellow man.
Our people in our cities were bombed to high heaven and still they stood strong. Strong enough to even mount a counter attack knowing the concequences they would ensue.
1 million tonnes of bombs dropped on one UK city in one night.
God saved our King and Queen many times.

Then America turned up.
Without Britain being there as a base, America would'nt have been able to have mounted a counter attack. Let alone win the war.
Anyway. I thought America got involved in the Europe War because their trade ships were getting torpedoed in the North Atlantic.

I'm sure aswell that Bush also had a smile on his face when we said we would stand shoulder to shoulder with him in this War on Terror........Dood.....

russia is a sad image of its former self.....if it resurrects its old communist ways, i will be happy

WE LOVE AMERICA

Why?

"The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage."
-- Thucydides,Ancient Greek historian and author, 460-404bc

Though frequently wrong-headed, immature, self-obsessed, and unwise, the American People have always proven to have courage when put to the test.

Why? Because this nation was built by those who had the courage to risk everything and cross the world to build for themselves a better life.

The secret of Happiness is Love, and the secret of Love, Understanding.

Alot of Americans only seem to understand how to get what they want, regardless to how it effects others.
Not alot of Love there.