USA . . . war on the horrizon? The Sequel (Golden Rainbow)

Michael.
'That is the only faith I have. That is also the only faith that I need.'
God gave you a soul. God gave you a conscience.
God want's you to use them.
For you to use then, you need to have faith in your own understanding of what is right and wrong. Faith in your own interpritation of the word's you have read. God want's you to work it out for yourself. For what other reason did he make us free. Only with faith in yourself can you recognise the work of the Anti-Christ(the son/daughter of the Devil). Only you can determine how to fight your battle, for each one of us have a unique fight to fight, for the fight is with ourselves.
Faith in God is what the Devil want's, for it know's God can't help us on the day of judgement, leaving those with only faith in God weak.
Jesus was here to give us faith in ourselves.
To show man that he has to deal with life and that if he is good, life and death are painless.
I think if Jesus was here today he would say:
God wont resurrect those who wont save his creation
Mother Nature.
It's the Devil that want's end of days. Yet it seem's to be the believers in God that's making it happen.
Oh ye. And the capitalist's, who proclaim themselves to be people of God, but are infact ASSHATS.

"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing"
-edmondt Burke

Which is why we should walk in Jesus's shoes at time of peace, and Mohamids shoes in times of war.

I think it's about time humanity stopped letting religion interfere with the running of it's nations. Religion should be a personal thing, not a way to run the world.

Here here! /me raises glass to Zeta's statement

The only reason humanity exist's is because of God. Why do you think God was created? It was to teach man how to be humaine.

God and religion were created as a means of control.

"Religion is the Opiate for the Masses"
-Carl Marx

Most christians don't follow the teachings of Jesus. Therefore those who claim to be christian are only fronting.
You must remember and follow the Ten Commandments. They serve a purpose.

I follow the Little Laguna and Animated Vegetables Church.

I'm a daily practitioner. I specially like to worship the bananas.

I wonder if Jesus had had a child, whether he would have done what he did?

I think we will lose this war, for this reason:
The army of God(Islam) is here to fight the army of Satan(Capitalizum).
The strength of God's army comes from Faith.
The strength of Satans army comes from Weapon's.
We are about to experience the biggest alteration/failure of Capitalizum since it began(around 1904).
This mean's the Army of Satan will soon be without it's weapon's. We know alot of soldiers don't think the war's worth fighting anyway, let alone having to fight it on a level playing field, meaning more soldiers will leave, less will be recruited and the Army will dwindle.
Unlike the Army of God. The harder life becomes the more people turn to God, meaning more soldiers will join.
If only Capitalizum would realise that it only has a part to play in life and that this idea that it is a way of life is whats causing most of the worlds problems. Satan will then be without an Army and the Army of God could disband.
This will then give Islam time, like the christian's, to take a good look at it's self and focus on doing God's work, instead of fighting God's war.
Why is Islam God's Army?
Mohamid was a man of war.
Jesus was a man of peace.
2 sides of the same coin.
Peace&Hardcore.................Nix001
MNA

OMG! We have an heretic among us!

Islam is just another tool in a long line of excuses to wage war.

God's Army?

Please.

Yes. The Taliban was sure doing the Lord's work in Afghanistan.

No doubt.

The world has had problems since Day One.


Changing economic theories is not going to change it in the slightest.

I find it amusing the ones screaming the loudest about capitalism usually suck from its teats the most.

Nix is a perfect example of why State Welfare is a crime against the natural order. In any reasonable society he would be working 18 hours a day instead of complaining and forumlating moronic theories about economics.

I do not desire. I have no children. I am a gardener. FU

What are You Sam?

Sam is the Angel of Death...

and a part time WalMart greeter during the holidays.

I like cake

I am an unrepentant, capitalist, warmongering, red meat eater, or simply a Texan.

MM: Well, first off, I reject the Quran right off hand from what I have heard is written in the book. Mostly because I hear from other researchers/scholars and others of that type how Muhammed's teachings are not consistent with the Christ Jesus. The Muslims take Muhammeds word as being SUPERIOR to the Christ's. Any mere human prophets whose word is taken over Jesus, I immediately take as false.

As far as the Muslims are concerned, Mohammed's teachings replace Jesus' just like Jesus' replaced those of Moses. For you to stop at Jesus, you need to prove either that Jesus was the son of God (virgin birth, etc.) or that Mohammed was a false prophet (which I think would be equally tough to do effectively).

So, unless you come to accept SOME of the teachings that you could possibly find in these books, what you say without any kind of scientific/religious backing (and if arguing with a scientist, religious writings have to be backed up with interpreting the text, in order to have a valid argument. The reason for having to interpret text, has already been covered in this post: We are SUPPOSED to interpret, and NOT take it literally.

If arguing with a scientist, you need evidence to have a valid argument. Your interpretation of the text is not likely to be convincing - I'm planning to come back to interpretation later in this post.

At least I am willing to learn.

I cannot applaud this enough. One should ALWAYS be open to challenging views and do everything one can to educate oneself. (God! How British does that make me sound! One must refrain from using 'one' too much!)

Anyway, I am just curious. Do you believe in any kind of after-life at all Zeta? Like ghosts and things, or do you think that when our bodies die, we no longer exist?

I am only curious. Death is one of the greatest mysteries of all. One in which science will never be able to determine what happens in death.

Although not directly addressed to me, here is my ten cents on death. I do not believe that any part of us (including consciousness) survives death. In other words, we cease to exist. Some would say that that amounts to a very depressing view of existence. Personally, I find it very liberating. It focusses me much more on the one life that I do have rather than deferring certain things to a life after death that may or may not come. I cannot understand the idea of Heaven or Hell - if an atheist's (religious) parents went to Heaven, would they not wish to be reunited with their child? What if that child, despite living an otherwise good life, ends up in Hell because a petulant God insists on belief as an entrance exam? If Heaven is a state of eternal bliss that doesn't require the ones you love to join you there, then I don't believe that it is really you that has reached Heaven. In any case, not all denominations believe in Heaven and/or Hell in a clearly personalised form such as this.

And why are religious people often so depressed when a loved one dies? Surely it should be a happy time: they are hopefully heading to Heaven (perhaps after a spell in purgatory, if Catholic). Why not give them a cheery wave and ask them to say 'Hi' to Uncle Fred? Death is a natural part (end) of life and I think it is absolutely necessary for the vitality of our existence as a species and a society. We should obviously try to put it off as long as we can, but so long as we have lived a full and happy life, it does not need to be a sad occasion for yourself or those around you. Irrespective of belief, I have always thought of funerals as more for the living than the deceased - a way of celebrating a life lived to the full and saying 'goodbye'. Those who are close to us still live on in our memories and thoughts, even if only for a generation or two. For me, that is all the immortality I need.

Guru: Science was created by man. Far too many theories and postulations to be truth. Truth is self evident and needs no further validation.

Truth is rarely self-evident. The theories and postulations are merely means of expressing truth. Refinements to those theories make them ever more accurate in representing truth. If you believe in moral truths, they are even muddier. Try taking this test at the Philosopher's Magazine. How much of a guide is science or religion? I would argue neither is a particularly good guide. Understanding science is an excellent way of learning to express your thoughts which can help your decision making even in tough moral dilemmas.

FarmerBob: Faith= belief in that which cannot be proven

Quite. Just to extend your definition a little:
Faith = belief without evidence
Fundamentalism = belief in spite of evidence to the contrary

MM: The point is, I would much rather have hope in a loving Father, who loves us so much, he is willing to suffer and die on a cross in order to relieve us of our sins so that we can get to heaven when our physical bodies die

Do you believe in original sin then? It was my understanding that Jesus was sent to cleanse the world of original sin and that, by following him, you could cleanse yourself of any future sins. A sort of sin now, confess later type-deal (paraphrasing the comedian Peter Kay from another post).

Interpreting the Bible

If you ask a fundamentalist about different interpretations of the Bible, you will possibly get a response along the lines of "interpreting the Bible devalues the message". They probably won't phrase it that way, but I suspect that that is what it will boil down to. In essence, the argument that the Bible must be interpreted places power in the hands of the individual. Many are quite happy to pass on this power to some sort of authority which is the basis of Religion (Catholicism, Anglicanism, etc.: Religion as opposed to Faith) others prefer to wield it themselves (non-denominational Christians, etc.).

As an outsider, how do I know who has the 'right' interpretation (insofar as there can be a 'right' interpretation)? This is one of the reasons why people often find themselves 'picking on' a particular denomination (as happened somewhere above in this thread) as they have a ready-made list of beliefs that can be 'picked on'. Furthermore, as an individual, how can you know if your own interpretation is 'right'? You then have a choice between picking an off-the-shelf interpretation (a particular denomination) or carefully reading the Bible and making your own interpretation. Inevitably, individuals will disagree and we will end up with a vast number of interpretations. This is what the fundamentalist would count as devaluing the message (partly because they would say they have the One True Message). What value is there in the Bible if everybody is allowed to come up with their own interpretation? Bearing in mind that there is even an Atheists for Jesus group who believe in Jesus' message but deny his divine credentials, why not just boil the message down to its essence and tell everyone to be nice to each other?

Secondly, and I suspect this will prove pretty controversial, by allowing different interpretations of the Bible, you are permitting people to hold a fundamentalist interpretation. You might not agree with their interpretation and you might argue against their views, but by admitting that you interpret the Bible, you admit that there may be other interpretations, no matter how horrid they may be.

This ties in with the issue of respect that I posted about ages ago. Even many moderate Christians want a certain level of respect for their beliefs that goes beyond the respect accorded to science - some use their faith to justify their opposition to abortions. I would have no problem with this if it extended only so far as not having an abortion themselves (or not using contraceptives, or not taking part in a gay marriage), but it doesn't. They are intent on stopping ALL people from having abortions (not just men!) because it is a matter of faith. Their faith is important to them and we are supposed to respect it. Whether it is intentional or not, fundamentalist interpretations sneak in through the back door by making use of the respect we are supposed to accord to moderate Religion.

Damnit. Was really trying to keep that post concise.

Oh, well. One last thing to say in response to Zeta:

YAY, CAKE!

kill them all and let God sort them out.

That quote originated with the First Crusade as the "Christian" army slaughtered its way through the Balkans, killing Christian and Muslim alike.

Probably a lesson in that.

Wow, I loved your article Zet.

I'll get to that in a moment.

To nix, JR, bob, and anyone else who mentioned capitalism:

Understand, that I am opposed to capitalists...I downright cannot even stand being in their mere presence. (Working at corporations will do that to you.) Case-in-point of my...hatred?...for capitalists is the fact that I am currently working at Arby's Roast Beef. The policy at Arby's is that no employee is allowed to date, or hangout with any other Arby's employee. UUMMM... WHAT?!? Am I to understand that Arby's is trying to take away my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS of assembly?? You mean to tell me Arby's has the right to tell me with whom I can date, or be friends with?? No...no, no, no...THEY have it all wrong. That is only 1 example out of many others of why capitalism is not a very good system. Is, in fact, downright evil! :P

I still believe in a free-market system though, before all the Rockefellers of the world made the free market completely collapse, and become capitalism.

Anyway, to Zets long post:

First off, every time I have argued/learned things from a scientist, I have yet to walk away being completely convinced that life "just happened." I also remain unconvinced that everything could have fallen into place to create even just 1 place in the entire cosmos, to have the absolute perfect conditions for abundant life. (Note here: I have used the word "ABUNDANT." That does not include a planet with a few extremophiles scattered around its surface. I mean REAL abundant life...fish, trees, dinosaurs, insects...those sorts of things.) Even with the trillions and trillions and trillions of stars in the entire cosmos, the chances of having a breatheable atmosphere, the perfect amount of solar radiation, with a magnetosphere to protect the planet from periodic solar flares, coupled with a thick ozone layer to further protect the planet. The planet being in the perfect "habitable" zone in its orbit around its star. A stable rotation, with the perfect-sized moon, to keep the planet that stabilized on its axis. UUMM...the right chemicals coming together...proteins, amino acids, and RNA, and whatever else was required....I mean the list just goes on and on and on about the ABSOLUTE PERFECT conditions on our planet to have life, literally, BURSTING out in every square inch of this planet. So science is hardly capable of explaining all of this...at least at the current level of research we have.

The rest of your post, I must say, you got down right to the point that it took the creator of Zeitgeist 2 hours to give. I applaude you in that regard. Despite what others may believe, or have faith in, ultimately, we are ALL humans, deserving of such respect. Seeing HUMAN BEINGS being torutured, and chopped into bits by OTHER human beings, is such a disgrace to every single living organism. Look at me, I am almost sounding like a pacifist....

The point is, is what nix was getting at. Jesus was a man of peace. There are a billion+ self-proclaimed "Christians." A Christian is one who follows Christ. Each man is to try to improve himself through the teachings of Jesus. That means, to sum up the 10 commandments, to "love one another, as I have loved you." If you love someone, you don't go out to kill them, rob them, covet their wives/property. And by following these basic things, you are honoring His teachings. Christians are also to confess Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, and offer your sins up to him. You will then be forgiven your sins. The last part, about confessing to Jesus, is following the last couple of commandments, about not having other gods, and such.

We are not perfect, no Christian follows all of these doctrines. That is the point of going to Jesus, and saying "I'm sorry, I'll try to do better next time," and that is how you grow.

Ok, so that last topic is covered....Moving on...

It is funny how you find it hard to imagine the existence of heaven/hell/purgatory, or any other kind of afterlife. (Catholics no longer believe in purgatory, because the Pope said so quite recently, btw.) I find that funny, because I find it hard to imagine there NOT being an afterlife of any kind.

I have heard another belief system that was rather weird. When you die, your "life-energy" flows out of your body, almost like steam rising from boiling water. It mingles with other life-energies, and mixes/matches, to form a new human, that has a completely new conciousness, that never existed before...er something like that. I always thought it was like water.

Take water in a water bottle. Every molecule in that water currently forms that one "body" of water. If you were to...say....boil it away rapidly, all the molecules would float up into the air in the form of steam, and kind of disperse into the atmosphere. Those individual molecules that were stuck in that bottle together, will never again come back together, but will, instead, integrate with OTHER individual molecules to form ANOTHER completely seperate body....dunno what the point of that was, just another belief system that I heard of a looooong time ago, and just now thought of for some strange reason.

Anyway, moving on once again...(dammit, I say "anyways" too damn much!) Every single thing anyone reads, or watches, they automatically interpret in their own way, no matter how much people oppose "Fundamentalist" ideas. Even the most die-hard, strict, Bible Believers STILL end up interpreting the Bible in their own, uniquely personal way, no matter how much they say they don't

As for MY interpretations that I have provided (The Genesis examples that I have used,) I, personally, find it "convenient" to interpret that particular book the way I did.

The evidence science DOES provide for evolution, and other theories is way too compelling to deny.

My own belief system, coupled with the LACK of evidence for the "spark" of life, and the unsolvable mysteries of the universe (death, for example,) leads me to conclude, with the highly compelling order of the wording in that book, that there IS, indeed a God, and that God DID, indeed create the universe, and ultimately, us.

(Wow, that last sentence was pretty ragged...lol!)

Life is as simple as Black and White, Right and Wrong, Up and Down, In and Out, Love and Hate, Life and Death, Hot and Cold, Hard and Soft, Happy and Sad, Good and Bad, Woman and Man.
Life is Positive energy and Negative energy.
These two entities are the by product's of the impossible creation and subsequent failing of perfection(all things becoming one). This perfection had come about from the order of chaos. Chaos is what we see in the universe today and with time it will become one again, creating and so on.
At the centre of 50% of entities there is positive energy and at the centre of the other 50% is negative energy. Creating a situation of forces which over time, has moulded what we are apart of today.
I think an atom is a mini solar system in a solar system which is an atom.