Simcountry: Forum

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 03:33Link

("A great day working outdoors" - I think this is what he says when the boys in the white coats come calling. But nobody say anything... shhh....)

Hi, Jaybeeeee!! Love youuuuuu!

Johanas Bilderburg

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 03:39Link

<!-Quote-!>Quote:
The whole world denounces Hamas terror<!-/Quote-!>

Really? Lets rework that into something more truthful, less Chomsky.

The whole world denounces the response to Hamas terror

Váli (Little Upsilon)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 03:41Link

Depleted uranium has a very low radiaoactivity al. You could surround yourself in the stuff and not suffer any radioactive damage to your body. Trust me I am a Dr ;-)

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 04:31Link

Sure thing, JB. Everyone hates Israel. That's why no one mentions the fact that Israel maintained a crippling blockade of Gaza for almost two years - a literal act of war, as defined by international convention. Tell me where you hear the world crying about that because I'd be interested to know. And where in any major media are you going to find out that once the "truce" was established, Hamas scrupulously observed it, firing no rockets even though the Israeli blockade continued to destroy Palestinian life, and only fired rockets again once Israel itself broke the truce with an incursion into Gaza that killed several Palestinians.

You heard choruses of criticism when Israel did these things??

And now everyone, everywhere, including people who consider themselves critical thinkers, accepts as "fact" the Israeli lies that Hamas was responsible for breaking the truce. Hamas gets blamed even for crimes it doesn't

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 04:33Link

<!-Quote-!>Quote:
A 1991 study by the UK Atomic Energy Authority predicted that if less than 10 percent of the particles released by depleted uranium weapons used in Iraq and Kuwait were inhaled it could result in as many as "300,000 probable deaths."

The British estimate assumed that the only radioactive ingredient in the bombs dropped on Iraq was depleted uranium. It wasn't. A new study of the materials inside these weapons describes them as a "nuclear cocktail," containing a mix of radioactive elements, including plutonium and the highly radioactive isotope uranium-236. These elements are 100,000 times more dangerous than depleted uranium.

...

Doug Rokke, the health physicist for the US Army who oversaw the partial clean up of depleted uranium bomb fragments in Kuwait, is now sick. His body registers 5,000 times the level of radiation considered "safe". He knows w

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 04:44Link

<!-Quote-!>Quote:
Depleted uranium (DU) is a waste product of the uranium enrichment process that fuels both our nuclear weapons and civilian nuclear power programs. In fact, over 99% of the uranium enrichment process results in this waste product, which has a half life of 4.5 billion years. DU is both a toxic heavy metal and a radiological poison. The U.S. currently has over 10 million tons of DU. As we all know, the disposal of nuclear waste is one of the unintended consequences or blowback of the development of nuclear power. A solution to the problem of DU has, however, been found. DU is now used in virtually every weapon employed by the U.S. in Iraq (and in Afghanistan and in Kosovo). To cite the most conspicuous example: every penetrator rod in the shell shot from an Abrams tank contains 10 pounds of DU. DU is selected for weapons for three reasons: it's cheap (was made available to arms man

Johanas Bilderburg (Little Upsilon)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 04:59Link

Obviously from the numbers of rockets fired not crippling enough. If I were advising the Israeli government I would suggest a much harsher blockade. Nothing in or out.

And whoever said these were fireworks is an idiot.

A 42 pound warhead will take down a medium sized building.

Váli (Fearless Blue)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 05:18Link

I prefer to obtain my information from published scientific reports rather than controversial books.
Uranium is easily removed from the body. over 90% of uranium taken into the body is excreted in urine within a day. The actual amount of DU absoped by people in the war zone is small.
Long term exposure i.e months or years to large amounts of DU dust may and I say may result in some health problems. Most of which are soon overcome. Certainly not on the grand scales above. Soldiers with DU scrapnel in the bodies have not been observed to suffer from any DU related illnesses.
Information can be presented to lead you to false conclusions.
your referal to a 1991 study is misleading 'could' and 'probable' actually turns out to be exceedingly rare.
The basic science in your above quote is flawed. 'Master code (histone)' even this basic science is wrong. histones are proteins and contain no genetic information

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 06:48Link

Okay Vali - you win on the science of DU, even though what you say seems at variance with the views given by Doug Rokke in the first quote. Anyway we still have the statement that the UN has declared DU an illegal weapon. Maybe "could" and "probable" are good enough for them? Or is this statement false?

JB: I called Qassams glorified fireworks. Which they are compared to what Israel is using. Twenty Israelis have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza since 2001, or about 1/100th the number of Palestinians killed by Israel in that time. And these numbers are all from before the latest attacks by Israel.

The rockets Hamas fires are also totally unguided and inaccurate. If a Qassam had ever levelled a mid-sized building, Israel's PR machine would have had the photos splashed over the world's front pages. And the seven-year death toll would be higher than 20. Instead the photos we see show holes in walls or roofs part

nix001 (Kebir Blue)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 15:11Link

Hi Almohad. The IDF have hit 3 schools now. I think 2 of them are UN schools. The IDF have the Sat Nav positions of these schools as well. I guess it's like what Vali said, 'My saying israel uses too much force, I mean the US army I hope would not target the enemy with indirect shell if they are next to a school but use more precise force such as a sniper..the isralis will however just bomb them and civilian casualites are excepted. they have become desensitised to war.'

Vali. You said, 'The actual amount of DU absoped by people in the war zone is small.'

Remember, almost 50% of the Gazan population are children. Weakened children, ill children, children with no water to pass the DU through their body by the means of urine.

You also said, 'Long term exposure i.e months or years to large amounts of DU dust may and I say may

FarmerBob

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 15:26Link

Almohad. It is quite curious to me how you keep referring to my position as one of being apologetic to the Israeli position in their conflict with Palestineans. I do support Israel's right to exist and shamelessly champion their society over the other nations of the Middle East. Perhaps you unable or unwilling to grasp the difference.

Therefore, I will attempt to reiterate it and clarify it in the simplist terms possible.
Forgive my post-modern intellectualism.

Forgive me, but I must begin with two relevant quotes. They are lengthy, I apologize.

<!-Quote-!>Quote:
If, in the future, war will be waged for the souls of men, the the importance of extending territorial control will go down. Long past are the days when provinces, even entire countries, were regarded as simply as items of real estate to be exchenged among rulers by means of inheritance, agreement or force. The triumph

FarmerBob

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 15:56Link

Post Script. The application of Occam's Razor to human activity most often yields a conspiracy theory.
You might factor that into your thinking.

John R

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 16:41Link

Why don't one or more of you write an article for your blogs?

Not saying to cease the conversation, but to serve as a way to make some kind of personal summary of all that was discussed here. Also, it may potentially serve as a way to attract more readers, thus more opinions on the same matter, than those in this game and/or be a way to track your on opinion on a subject through time. There may be other utilities, of course.

Just a thought.

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 16:54Link

Farmer Bob -

Almost nothing of what you say is at any variance whatsoever with anything I believe. I'm afraid you spent a great deal of time arguing with eloquence, passion and clarity... against a straw man.

I'll ignore the comment about conspiracy theories, except to offer "I'm skeptical, you're paranoid, he's a conspiracy theorist." The label is just an avoidance tactic, offered with no supporting arguments. (I also think you've misapplied Occam's razor, but that's just me being a Google intellectual.)

The one thing I do believe that stands in stark contrast to your own position, is that the Palestinians - people and leadership alike - have shown a very real understanding of the difficulties of their situation over the years. This is perhaps to be expected from the party that is clearly getting much the worse of the engagement. Of course their approach has been marred by the use o

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 16:55Link

Not a bad idea, John R.

Váli (Fearless Blue)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 18:12Link

To what end al? Why would isreal wish to continue fighting people in a poor worthless strip of land?

FarmerBob (Little Upsilon)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 18:29Link

Symmetry is only relevant to action or course of action or inaction or nothing at all.

From my perspective, the Question is: What to do?

The answer: Not a thing. Reasons above.

Morality cannot be quantified, only qualified.

Attempts to do so are specious and wrongheaded when applied to geopolitics.

My symmetry is "a pox on both your houses". Reasons above.

The Palestineans could have a state and world support overnight. You know exactly how. They were shown the path over 50 years ago. Thus far, they have chosen not to take it.

I am prepared to die, but there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill.
Mohandas Gandhi

Johanas Bilderburg (Little Upsilon)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 19:19Link

Poor marksmanship does not lessen the intent or danger behind random rocket and mortar attacks on civilian population centers.

The launch sites are situated in populated areas. If they were in the open then the colateral damage would be excessive I agree.

As the situation stands. No. The losses are unavoidable and sad but by no means excessive.

Its not easy to fight terrorists who hide amongst their women and children.

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 19:46Link

Vali - do you think there might be more at stake here than just the land itself? Does it seem wrong-headed to you to think that Israel is targeting Hamas and the Palestinians?

Farmer Bob - do you think that "a pox on both your houses" is truly an equitable response? Do you think taking such a position has no effects in the real world? Does it mean that you are simply removed from having any role at all in what is going on?

How's this for an analogy: you pass a man raping a woman in the street. He's subduing her by striking her repeatedly. She's responding by biting, kicking and scratching as much as she can, and of course isn't very likely to fight off the attacker even if she does manage to give him a few bruises and cuts. She's also yelling for help. Is the analogy flawed? How? And how is your taking a "pox on both your houses" position in this case different from your taking the same position on the

Maxwell (Little Upsilon)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 20:09Link

I was unaware the rocket attacks into Israel had ever ceased from either Palestinian held lands or southern Lebanon.

Is this true Almohad117 that prior to the Israeli attacks the sirens in Israel have been quiet? the rockets have not been coming in daily?

Max

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 21:39Link

According to a Nov 5 article in the UK newspaper The Guardian, the truce was broken Nov 4 by an Israeli military raid into Gaza, which they claimed was to destroy a tunnel out of Gaza. The article notes that this was the first breach of the ceasefire by either side, which was established June 19th. Hamas responded by firing rockets into southern Israel.

The Israeli peace group Gush Shalom also says that the ceasefire was breached by Israel, but they say this occurred with Israel's raid on the night of the US elections. Again, Israel said the objective was to destroy tunnels, and again, Hamas fired rockets in response.

None of this necessarily means that the sirens in Southern Israel have literally been quiet. I imagine in the two above cases, they were plenty noisy when the retaliatory rockets started to fly!

As for Southern Lebanon, I don't know. Was a ceasefire in force in Southern Lebanon? Either way, in both above case

nix001

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 22:47Link

Also about 2 years ago Hamas had stopped firing rockets. But due to the blockade that Israel imposed on Gaza during this time of calm, cutting off supplies and stopping families from leaving or entering, Hamas restarted it's offensive against Israel. Hamas said to Israel that if it lifted it's blockade they would stop, but Israel refused to do so.
There are also statements from Israelie top officials saying how they would never allow a Palistinian State.

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 22:52Link

And the blockade itself, defined by international convention as an act of war, continued unabated throughout this entire period. In other words, there were long stretches of time when Hamas was holding fire while an act of war was maintained by the Israelis.

It's my understanding that Hamas has abandoned suicide attacks on Israel during this period as well - although now after the premeditated carnage in Gaza I'm sure all bets are off.

nix001

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 23:09Link

I agree mate. But as Hamas and the Arab states are no match against Israel or the USA I fear the Muslim people will take matters into their own hands and suicide attacks will be carried out in countries such as our own, Israel and the USA. The concequences of us and the USA not stopping Israel will be felt for years to come. And where as before the targets would have been people who play apart in the machine of power (workers, soldiers, police), I fear that now anything will go. I truly hope the British Muslims understand that most Britains are horrified at what they see in Gaza and don't class our women and children as legitimate targets.

Almohad117 (White Giant)

All worlds

07 Jan 2009 23:55Link

You're right. There is more likely to be a backlash after the Gaza slaughter - and I think that's part of Israel's plan. At least they have a vested interest in increased Palestinian/Arab militancy, since that reduces any pressure on them to negotiate. Just another reason to fight to get the truth out. The guys on here say it's "just talk" and makes no difference, but it definitely makes a difference.

Good point too about the US needing to finally start applying some pressure to Israel. This is one of the really important points that needs to be made much more frequently. I'm not holding my breath that it will happen anytime soon, since the US Congress is pretty much a branch of the IDF, but pressure has to be applied.

On the BBC James Zogby of the Arab American Institute said the Gaza "conflict" could be stopped tomorrow if the US simply told Israel to stop. The last president to have the balls to do

JERUSALEM